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Play Video about She Sells Radio Episode 142 Mark Magnacca
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Mastering Virtual Selling with Mark Magnacca, President of Allego


When it comes to virtual selling, we are all or all have been in a place where it is absolutely necessary. Due to the Covid-19 pandemic, virtual buying and selling has become the method of choice and with information constantly at the buyers’ fingertips, the sales process is different. In this community, we want to sell from the heart with heart and it might feel impersonal in a virtual setting. But today’s guest shows us that it can be even more personal than before.


Mark Magnacca is the co-founder and President of Allego, one of the world’s leading sales learning and enablement platforms. We first connected through a mutual friend and client and have known each other for many years. The lessons I have learned from Mark have been powerful and the content he provides in this interview is extremely valuable no matter what industry you are in. Mark is also the co-author of several books, but today we zoom in on Mastering Virtual Selling

Show Notes:

[3:22] – Mark shares the inspiration behind his most recent book as the change in selling due to Covid-19.

[4:47] – Mark had already brought remote working to the company years prior to the pandemic.

[6:38] – It is about the buyer and not about what you want.

[8:31] – Ask your clients, employees, or teammates their preferred mode of communication.

[10:02] – Geographical location makes a difference in meetings as well.

[12:06] – The more you can do to elicit the knowledge of what buyers want, the more power that you have.

[13:44] – What if buyers follow a journey that is different from the way the sales funnel is organized?

[15:26] – Mark demonstrates the power of information with LinkedIn.

[17:06] – The salesperson is a guide and that is a mindset shift.

[18:42] – Mark describes a recent buying experience that blew him away.

[21:36] – The differentiation isn’t the technology, it’s the way you use it.

[24:10] – Mark took the core message of branding to a different type of audience.

[25:16] – It doesn’t have to be unique. The value is in customization to your subset.

[27:29] – The momentum in relationship building creates an opportune time to close a sale. Waiting too long will cause that energy to dissipate.

[29:22] – Trial closing is a strategy that will help create a balanced relationship.

[31:10] – Both people in a relationship must want something to make it happen. Oftentimes the balance is not 50-50.

[33:25] – Go where you are wanted to avoid chasing the sale.

[35:14] – Lack of self worth is one of the reasons many women avoid going into sales. Do it a different way.

[38:15] – If you are a parent, don’t underestimate the power you have in shaping your child’s mindset.

[40:42] – Mark shares some things he has learned from his own children.

Connect with Mark:

Mastering Virtual Selling Website

Mark Magnacca on LinkedIn

Links and Resources:

Instagram  |  LinkedIn  |  YouTube

She Sells with Elyse Archer Home Page


Speaker 1 (00:02):

Welcome to she sells radio. I am so excited for the conversation that we’re gonna have today with a very special guest and friend of mine. And I know we’re gonna get into some very tactical sales strategy today, but one of the things that I also know, and one of the things I really respect and appreciate about my guest is that one of the biggest things he stands for is selling from heart and selling with heart. And, uh, you’re gonna hear that come through today. And I was actually funny enough. Uh, we were just talking about this mark behind the scenes and how did we first get connected? And I was first connected to, um, our guest today, mark Magna, a through a mutual friend and client. And I’d been hearing his name in the industry for years as the co-founder of this company called Allego, which if you’re not familiar with it, it’s one of the leading sales learning and enablement platforms in the world.

Speaker 1 (00:55):

And we were introduced, uh, he graciously invited me to come on his podcast when I first launched. She sells. So mark very much a friend of the brand and the community and the work that we’re doing here in the she sales world. And, you know, I wanted to have him on the show today to talk about the new book that he co-authored, which is phenomenal. If you haven’t read it yet, puts in the camera angle, mastering virtual selling, cuz all of us are selling online in some way, shape or form. And I know from many client conversations that there are parts of the sales process that can feel awkward, right, or where we feel like we get hung up. And today I wanna help clear all of those for you. Uh, we’re gonna bring mark on to help so that you can confidently and boldly sell every single time. So mark my friend and welcome to this show. It’s so good to have you here today

Speaker 2 (01:48):

Least really excited to be here and um, proud of how much progress you’ve made in such a short period of time.

Speaker 1 (01:54):

Thank you. Well, thank you so much for being a, uh, a friend of the brand, a supporter of the brand. And I’m so excited for this conversation today and for this book. And so, um, and we were, you know, we were having such a great chat before I hit recorder. Like let’s just hit record cuz I don’t wanna miss anything good that comes out here. So, um, so I think it would be great to start with is tell us a little bit about the inspiration for this book. So you’ve authored multiple books. Now you wrote mastering virtual selling recently. What was the inspiration for bringing this work into the world at this time?

Speaker 2 (02:28):

That’s a great question, Elise, you know, really what happened is that, uh, my co-founder and I had been working on a different book and um, a as the pandemic began to unfold, we recognized through some brainstorming that he and I did together that, um, all of a, there were some efficiencies and some things happening as much as we were experiencing the, the, uh, confusion and fear that was, uh, unfolding in 2020. We began to that. There’s some elements of this that actually kind of make sense. Now you, you need to know that I had already been a virtual employee at my own company for, for the proceeding four years in that I lived an hour and a half away. And so, um, when we co-founded the company, my co-founder lived closer to Boston and I lived 90 miles away. And um, basically the talent pool around Boston is much better than where I was.

Speaker 2 (03:25):

And so we just put the office there cuz it really made sense. Um, but what that meant is I had a long commute, you know, an hour and a half each direction. So we agreed early up front. Like I don’t need to be in the office. I want to, interestingly I said, I gotta be there kind of about two, maybe three days a week, but definitely not five days a week. So it’s almost like in 2016 I had the epiphany that many people had in 2020 and 2021, which was, Hey, there’s a better way. Yeah. And I personally am the one who brought zoom into our company because I was the, the heaviest user of remote and, and um, we were using another one of the other services, which I didn’t like at all. And um, and so then I, I started to learn a, a number of these things.

Speaker 2 (04:08):

And so as the pandemic started to unfold, this idea was, wait a minute. It’s not just me. Who’s learned my co-founders learned. And Tony, Jerry, who is our, our third co-author, you know, he spent a lifetime, really the mastering, these skills, um, both in in-person skills and the virtual skills. So we realized there’s a huge amount of misinformation. There’s a lot of people who think that this thing is like a temporary blip, but we’re gonna go back to 2019. And we realized that with our combined knowledge, we could literally have what would be of a super easy to consume encyclopedia of the best ideas to make this world easy to enter into versus struggling and kind of holding your breath, hoping it will go away.

Speaker 1 (04:53):

Yeah. Gosh, well, it’s, it’s so neat. I know, you know, listening to this show, we’ve got, we have entrepreneurs, we have people who have always sold online and we’ve got, you know, sales leaders and sales reps who are in some of the, maybe more traditional industries where it may still like, they’re still kind of, it’s like, how do we transition our process this way? Right. I think most people at this point have developed a pretty solid process for selling online and there’s still mistakes. We’re all making sure in that sense. Right? So from where you’re sitting, what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see people making with selling virtually that you’re like, if I could just help people stop doing this, it would make a huge difference in their success rate.

Speaker 2 (05:35):

Okay. Well this may be the, the most valuable piece of insight I can offer cuz um, if you get this one, right, it literally solves 80% of the problem that most people have when it comes to virtual selling. So what I mean by that is that most people think they need to decide whether something should be virtual or in person and what the mix should be. And in fact, the very simple idea is that it’s not about you, it’s about them. So I say to any seller right now who says, I can’t wait to get back. I actually don’t care whether you can’t wait to get back. What I would care about if I were you is what are they they want. So if I’m selling to Elise and I have one question that I ask, and maybe it’s at the beginning of our conversation, Elise, maybe it’s at the end. I say to you, for example, Hey Elise, just as I think about the upcoming meetings that we’re gonna be having, um, can you tell me, what is your preferred communication and strategy? Do you prefer to do this virtually? Do you prefer to do it, uh, in person or do you prefer some combination of each and then, and then you tell me now you tell me if I were to ask you that question right now for you, what would your preferred communication strategy be?

Speaker 1 (06:53):

Oh, I would be like, I love you, but I don’t wanna meet in person ever.

Speaker 2 (06:58):

No, no. And no, let play this out at least. Cause this is what people don’t realize. You have a young child at home, right? Yes. Let’s just assume right. That we decide to meet in person. And then on not on that particular day, I haven’t had a little cough. Right.

Speaker 2 (07:11):

You know, it’s like, this is what people haven’t realized. I don’t know if you’ve noticed this, but in the book we talk about, uh, Myro Ben Xander. So I just did my podcast with Ben Xander. That’s coming out shortly and he said something Remarkables happened. I said, what’s that? He said, nobody coughs in a concert anymore. And he said, I’ve been doing this for 45 years. There was always, or he’d be getting ready to start. There was always a, you know, some people was like a, an unconscious tick, right? Yeah. That they just did that to clear their throat. He said, nobody costs. And you know this cuz you’ve been on airplanes. So the, the point here is, um, unless there’s a reason. So for example, if I said you, Hey look, um, we don’t need to get together for business, but I’m gonna be in North Carolina and I’d love to go out to eat and we’re gonna eat outside at a, at a restaurant.

Speaker 2 (08:01):

Just kind of get a chance to spend some time together. It doesn’t mean that we don’t ever want to get together. It just means that a lot of what we’re gonna do for work actually can be done better this way or minimally. I say minimally. The biggest change is I don’t know of any CFO in the country right now. Who’s gonna justify an airline ticket. If you live in Boston to fly to California. Mm. For a first appointment, if you have not already had at least an initial conversation like this, cuz my belief is if I can’t get you to come on this, which is really pretty easy, do I really wanna invest traveling 3000 miles for a first meeting? Yeah. So I think if you start with that framework, which is, let’s start by asking them the buyer, what do they care about? And uh, and if it turns out that it’s in person fine.

Speaker 2 (08:50):

The other thing I will acknowledge is that there is a absolute geographic difference in the United States on this topic. So I happen to be in Florida right now and I happen to be from Massachusetts. There’s a huge gap in during this period of time in terms of, um, the ability to meet in person and the ability to not meet in person. And in some states you really have not been able to meet in person at all. And then in other states it’s been pretty much almost like, uh, many, many people are comfortable. So I, I recognize and I add as a disclaimer, I recognize there’s geographic distinctions, but my, my statement still holds if you’re in a state and you’re asking someone and their personal values are, yeah, I wanna get together. That’s your call. And if you’re in a state that says, you know what, I’d really rather not. I’d prefer to do it this way, then why not adapt versus trying to force it?

Speaker 1 (09:41):

Ah, that’s so good. It’s to me, when you say that it’s like the platinum rule, right. Treat others the way they wanna be treated. It, it feels like that in terms of communication. Um, yeah. That’s brilliant. Which as you say that it’s like, I need to, one of our guess recently, Brit Hodak, um, talked about creating super fans and that’s like, one of the key things she talks about is find out their communication style and um, and communicate to them that way. Which by the way, if you two don’t know each other, I need to introduce you cuz it would

Speaker 2 (10:09):

Be yeah. Sounds like right, right up my alley right

Speaker 1 (10:12):

Off your alley.

Speaker 2 (10:13):

The, the, uh, the interesting part about this, at least that immediately connects for you is that, um, for any of us who have an important personal relationship, whether it’s in your marriage or in some other type of romantic relationship, um, isn’t this a great idea in the same way. It really like if you really think about it. So you talked earlier about being able to sell from the heart. Right. And the notion of, of, of basically saying, look, I’m not gonna just impose on you the way I like to do it. Yeah. If, if my goal is to interact with you, why don’t I just ask you the question? What do you like? And it’s, it’s the classic situation of, you know, the guy who wants to hug and the woman who doesn’t wanna hug, who brings flowers and she’s, you know, it’s, it, it, it’s not understanding that people have different convincer strategies in their personal life. And it turns out buyers have the same thing. And, and even within a committee, there’s a culture that often forms, right. There’s a culture around kind of the way we do things, even when it’s unspoken. So the more you can do to elicit in my experience, the not for you about what do they like, what do they don’t like, how do I adapt to what they want versus trying to push them to do it my way. Yeah. Um, the more power you ultimately have.

Speaker 1 (11:30):

Yeah. That’s so good. And it ties in with one of the first parts of the book, which is about creating an exceptional buying experience. And I love of that concept. I think that’s something I’m always working to get better in with our clients. And that to me is like, when we can do that, it, it makes the rest of the sales process just tee up so smoothly. So I would love if you could speak to what are, you know, one to three of the key points about creating that exceptional buying experience that you think is critical, whether it’s online or offline, but obviously we can speak specifically to virtual, um, here as well.

Speaker 2 (12:05):

Yeah. Well, I, I think the first thing I would tell you is that what we’ve realized is that most people in sales follow this notion of a, of a sales process, right? And they think of it as a funnel. And you’re sort of, there’s the top of the funnel as people are coming in and they’re moving through the mid funnel. And at some point I liken it in my own mind, almost like marbles going down into a funnel and that, you know, different marbles are sort of falling out of the funnel. And then you get down to this deep funnel and, uh, and all of a sudden these are the really qualifi marketing qualified leads as it’s called, um, that sales people are going to engage in. The problem with that is that that’s not necessarily how your buyers think of themselves again, going back to this framework.

Speaker 2 (12:48):

So the whole world of sales training is all about the sales funnel, the sales funnel, the sales funnel. Well, the question is, what if buyers actually follow a journey that’s different than the way you’ve organized the sales funnel and what I mean by that is what if most buyers and, and McKinsey says this and Forrester says this in Gartner. I mean, they’ve all done. Independent research is all coming back to, to very close to the same thing. 60 to 70% of the search that’s happening is happening before you interact with the salesperson. This is a complete sea change. You know, when people used to go to buy a car 20 years ago, a new car came out, you didn’t know anything. You had to go there to get the brochure. They’d give you the brochure. The person would walk you through it. But there, there was no, there was no doing information, right?

Speaker 2 (13:35):

When you worked with a stock broke where 20 years ago, you, you, weren’t doing a lot of research at that time online. It was maybe just starting, but, but most people were calling the expert and the expert was telling them the information. When you went to the doctor, you surely, most people were not going to a medical library and sort of boning up on what the, what the procedure might be or what the diagnosis might be. So recognizing that people are going through this buying experience needs to inform the way you interact. And, and my favorite one, at least it comes up so often and I’m not a shareholder in LinkedIn. I wish I was, but I’m not. Yeah, no kidding. So, so I’m, uh, I’m not promoting this for any specific reason, but whenever I meet people and, and I, I, so of disregard most social media in the business context, except LinkedIn.

Speaker 2 (14:24):

And because I think for most business people, um, that’s the one that really matters. But when I meet people who will say either a I’m not on LinkedIn or B, I go see their LinkedIn. They have no picture. They have nothing. Right. Um, I say to ’em, what you’re missing is that you have a, you have this internal focus, which is, I don’t use it. Therefore it doesn’t matter. Yeah. You’re forgetting they are Googling you. And what you don’t know is because of length in the number of hits, it gets, it gets prioritized in the algorithm. So for people who don’t have a big web presence, LinkedIn is often the first thing that comes up now, I click the LinkedIn and you’ve got a bare bones presentation, or a bare bones profile. You’ve got no picture, or you’ve got an ancient picture on there. All of a sudden, I just immediately start to form an opinion.

Speaker 2 (15:14):

And it’s, it’s kind of like, I got referred to, um, an accountant recently. And, uh, it’s a friend of mine. Who’s a lawyer who referred me, gave me two names. And I said to ’em, I want you to know that one of the things important to me in the accountant that I would work with is they have to be technological. They have to do QuickBooks online. They have to know these things. Right. So of the two that he gave me, I Googled them both. The first one has no website has a phone number and an address in Google. The second one had a website. Yeah. I said to my wife, I’m like, I’m not even calling them. Right. I don’t even wanna talk to them.

Speaker 1 (15:50):


Speaker 2 (15:50):

Exactly. If it’s 2020, and you don’t have a website, it’s like a restaurant. If you, if a restaurant has no website and they have no reviews, right. I don’t really wanna go, unless I’m going with a friend who says I’ve been here and I can vouch for it.

Speaker 1 (16:04):


Speaker 2 (16:04):

Yeah. So that’s the fundamental distinction. And it goes really back to what I was talking about. The, you know, the very first thing we chatted about, which is get your mind oriented, that the salesperson is really much more like a Sherpa guide, helping someone navigate a buying process versus a marble falling through a funnel.

Speaker 1 (16:26):

Yeah. Which would apply. I, I love that. And, and for those of us who are entrepreneurs or those listening to, or entrepreneurs, it’s like, you’re often the salesperson right. In your, in what you’re doing. And so the same thing applies. Um, what for you, I’m curious, that’s such a great story about the accountant. Is there an exceptional buying experience you’ve had recently where you’re like they did this, or they did this, and this really stood out to me and made a big difference for me that made me ultimately choose aside from obviously the website is important having the virtual presence, but is there anything else, even in terms of like customer touch points that were maybe a little different that made that exceptional?

Speaker 2 (17:05):

Yeah. So coincidentally, um, this is literally, um, I’m, I’m, I’m gonna just grab something. Sure. Cause I have to do show and tell here. Okay,

Speaker 1 (17:14):

Love it. I love it.

Speaker 3 (17:15):

Now this woman completely knocked my socks off,

Speaker 2 (17:20):

At least because while I was going through this research, all right. Um, I get a message on LinkedIn and it turns out this woman is connected to someone I’m connected with and, and she specializes in helping entrepreneurs. And so she sends me this short form video through LinkedIn and I watch it. And I think she must know all about Lego because I mean, she’s totally using my buying strategy. Right. Yeah. So anyway, we communicate by LinkedIn and then, um, we set up an appointment to talk and I get, I get this, uh, um, a, a, um, envelope that is, you know, calligraphy style and in the mail, she sends me, um, the picture about her business. She sends me this, um, you know, kind of like a brief overview. And then at least she sends me a treasury of quotations of Zig Ziegler and people like Joe Dispenza. It’s got all these quotes. It’s just a quote book. Right. Who does this?

Speaker 1 (18:28):

Now? This is, I love this woman

Speaker 2 (18:30):

Before we get on the phone. She does this. All right.

Speaker 1 (18:33):


Speaker 2 (18:33):

Good. So then we get on the phone and literally, um, she’s the most compelling CPA I’ve ever met? Hmm. Oh, coincidentally, both of her parents are CPAs and she’s realized I don’t wanna have a traditional CPA practice. And her target is entrepreneurs who really have specialized tax challenges and, and really some sophisticated strategies that’s targeted to, to business owners. So anyway, she represents someone who, who worked both virtual. She used traditional mail. She used electronic media. She used virtual. She used referral, like she’s surround grounded me. And despite my network of lots of different people who were sending me referrals. Cause I was asking, yeah, We’ve ultimately chosen her based on the buying experience.

Speaker 1 (19:24):

I love that so much. Of course. And, and what I love about that, it’s interesting. We’ve got, um, a real, really good community of, of women specifically in financial services in our community. And I know Allego serves a huge portion of the financial services industry too. And one of the questions I keep getting is like, how do I stand out? How do I break through people’s indifference? And it’s obviously there’s compliance and financial services. So there’s things you can do in things you can’t do that you might be able to do in other industries. But little things like that, just making it personal. It’s not even a little thing. She put effort into it, but she

Speaker 2 (19:58):

Did. She did, by the way, you should, she’s someone you should talk to, then I’m gonna introduce you to

Speaker 1 (20:02):

Her. Please do. Yeah. I was literally thinking that I was like, I gotta have her on the show. Her

Speaker 2 (20:06):

Name is Kathryn Tindel and um, amazing. She’s what I love is she’s practiced what she’s preached in and I’m gonna tell you something like at every step Elise, like she’s just got it dialed in the, the, the reminder before the zoom call the yeah. The, the email the day before saying, you know, can you fill this thing out? Here’s the secure portal, like all the elements of it. And, and then realizing that, um, she’s executing on these things. So I’m telling you that sometimes the differentiation isn’t the technology, the differentiation is your capacity to use the technology.

Speaker 1 (20:44):

Ooh, the differentiation isn’t the technology it’s capacity to use the technology.

Speaker 2 (20:49):

Meaning a lot of people, you

Speaker 1 (20:50):

Have it,

Speaker 2 (20:51):

Right? They, they have it, but they don’t, they just don’t know how to use it. Well, so the confluence of she has the calendaring software. I can make the appointment and then it automatically sends me this. And it’s like, and, and she’s a CPA. Most CPAs. My God, I, I have one of the CPAs that I interviewed. His email I’m like, oh goodness, are you

Speaker 1 (21:11):

Kidding me? Sorry to anyone who email

Speaker 2 (21:15):

Talk about like sending a message. Like I’m, I’m from another era, you know?

Speaker 1 (21:21):

But to, to me what you’re saying, which is true is it’s like, we can’t have the excuses of I’m to, it’s not tech savvy or that’s not my thing. It’s just, it’s it can’t be an excuse. Either. Learn it or hire someone to do it for you. Yes. Like if you wanna be successful yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:36):

Or be me, or be mediocre too, that’s an option. That’s

Speaker 1 (21:38):

An option. Yeah. Right.

Speaker 2 (21:39):

So I’m just, if you wanna be exceptional, which is what we’re talking about, an exceptional, my experience, you gotta, you gotta figure out the subset of people that you, you care about enough to go the extra mile. Cuz that’s what they’re gonna notice. And you can’t do it sometimes you gotta do it all the time.

Speaker 1 (21:54):

All the time. Yeah. Gotcha. This stuff fires me up. Cause I feel like this is, these are the things and the sales process that I saw missing for many and, and it’s no knock on any organization, but these things were missing in organizations. I was a part of, and even sales coaching that was taught. It’s like when you do these things right. And people feel important when they feel seen, when they feel like you understand their preferences. I feel like that’s, I don’t know, 80, 90% of the, the game. So,

Speaker 2 (22:22):

Well, let

Speaker 1 (22:23):

Me make

Speaker 2 (22:23):

A point if I, if I may on that point, cause your listeners may not know this. All right. Um, when I first was introduced to you, I had no idea about your background. I did do homework before we got on the call, but somehow I, because of the context it shifted and you were going to be a professional speaker for a mutual client of ours, Ash brokerage. Um, I, I just, you know, I sort of saw you in that perspective, but what was interest thing is we got to know each other. And then when I watched your presentation, you and I are representative of the fact that in the same way that most of the great religions have had evangelists who took the core message, but they modified it slightly for different audiences with Christianity. It was one was for the Greeks. One was for the Romans.

Speaker 2 (23:10):

One was for the Jews, right. It was taking this core message and bringing it to different groups of people. Well, I took the message in 2003 with a book called the product as you of personal branding to financial advisors. Now I was a financial advisor. I spoke that language. I could interact with them. I, I knew the challenges and opportunities within the business. And I was able to take that knowledge and build a whole business out of it. And then when I saw you, um, and it had been, you know, it was really 15 years later. Yeah. You were doing many of the same things and I, I commented to you on it. And it wasn’t because you had read my book. It is because you had come to many of the same conclusions as I had. And when I watched your personal brand new presentation, I thought like, this is so cool.

Speaker 2 (23:57):

Yeah. I mean, by the way, I wasn’t in that business at that time. Yeah. Because I’m in a Lego, but I thought, wow, you’ve taken a message that I was using. You’ve built your own version of that. And you’ve customized it for a whole new subset, which by the way, I probably wouldn’t have resonated in the way you do for your target market. Yeah. So part of what your listeners need to remember is it doesn’t even have to be like something that you dream it’s completely unique. Very often the value is in the personalization, the customization, and really your, the, the person who’s the subject matter expert or, or, or content creator, uh, influencer, if you will, it’s that person understanding this submarket. Mm

Speaker 1 (24:43):

That’s so good. That’s so good. I can only imagine in 2003, you were probably like the first person talking about personal branding and at least in your space, I would,

Speaker 2 (24:52):

I of it, there was, there was one other person, but you know, there was 600,000 financial advisors. So that’s a

Speaker 1 (24:57):

Good market between

Speaker 2 (24:58):

Him and I. There was, you know, you know, there was plenty of work for everybody do

Speaker 1 (25:02):

It. One of the other things, mark I’m I’m. So to ask you about, cuz I think this is a real, super power of yours. And I think this is also where, what I hear from our community is they, for many, this is I I never like making blanket statements, but what I hear from many of the members of our community is they feel good up until the close. Like they feel good. Like I love building rapport. I love building relationships. And sometimes they’re making great friends and not moving people into action. And I know you’re a master at, you’re a master at all of that. Right. And this isn’t just blowing smoke. It’s like I’ve had the, we’ve had a relationship for a while now. I know you’re great at relationship building. And I also know that you’re great at driving people to action. What are, can you give us like one to two, you key things that you think help move people from like move people powerfully into making that decision in that close. Um, and again, it can be customized to virtual or not, but, but I think that would be an area that people could really, really benefit from, uh, from us having a conversation around.

Speaker 2 (26:03):

Sure. No, I, I have some thoughts on this one least. Um, I’ll give you an example. Um, one of the things I know from my study of politics is that, um, political capital is something that has to be used. It can’t be stored away for long. Right? So what that means in politics is if you, if you’ve had a win and you’ve, you, you know, you sort of have the win that you’re back, you’ve won an election. For example, you have a limited peer period of time to sort of invest that capital and get things done with it because it’s it dissipates, right. There’s sort of a half life of political capital. And, and one of the things that I know, um, is that, uh, a famous line from, from Jimmy Carter when he was president, was, he said in the, uh, run up to, to his, uh, reelection, which he lost was one of the things about me that makes me unique is that, um, I don’t owe anyone any favors.

Speaker 2 (27:01):

So in other words, I’m not like most people in Washington, I don’t know anyone, any favors and what his opponent, Ronald Reagan rightly called out was that’s true. And guess what, nobody owes you any favors either. Mm, interesting. And in order to get things done very often, it’s people doing favors for each other because you know, all politics is local. So now let me transfer this over to the world of selling one of the biggest mistakes. And remember I have two daughters, so I I’m highly attenuated to what I do believe is a often, not always back to your point, not always, but often a difference in the cultural communication style. And I’m just gonna speak to women in north America. Right? My, my 18 year old daughter is a perfect example of it. And she’s described to me that, you know, being in a class, um, in college, just the way people interact, she’s less comfortable raising her hand and sort of getting into the fray than some of the men are.

Speaker 2 (28:01):

And it’s not because she’s not as smart or smarter. Right. It’s just like the way it is. And so we could debate well, whether it should be that way or should be that way, or we could say, well, let’s just get into your world and figure out how is it and what, what can you do to change? Yeah. So one of the things that I would tell you that in my experience is that, uh, the idea of the trial club is a critical element of getting it to be much easier. And what you have to realize is that if I just give and give and give, and I never ask for anything in return, I’m creating an imbalanced relationship and I’ll remind you, this metaphor goes back to the personal and even romantic relationships. Again, it’s never good in anything when one person’s here and one person’s here, you can’t have this deferential, um, you know, sort of a gen inflection of, uh, well, you’re, you’re the buyer you’re up here.

Speaker 2 (28:59):

It’s no, we are meeting on, what’s called on the level. I have unique value. You have unique value. I’m not better than you, but I’m not worse than you either. And so if I can start with that, what it means is say, listen, at least I’m gonna be giving you the following pieces of value. And one of the currencies you can pay me in is you’re showing up to the meeting. One of them can be, you’re referring me to people. One of them can be, you can be a testimonial for me and all through the buying process. There are examples of ways that you can use your political capital, even though there’s no money being exchanged. Yeah. So if you pulled five of your friends to come to a call with me and you’re vouching for me, that has value. But beyond that, at least what you’ve now done is you’ve invested in this relationship.

Speaker 2 (29:46):

And so what I think happens sometimes is people are in the mindset that if I just give, give, give, give, give, give, ultimately it will, it will pop. And sometimes that happens, but I’m telling you that the notion of a relationship balance, and I be very clear. That doesn’t mean it’s always even in any marital relationship. Sure. It’s never 50 50, right? Sometimes it’s like this and sometimes it’s like that. And sometimes it’s it’s even way off, but, but recognizing that we both have to contribute, you know, we both have to want this and it can’t be me forcing it. So what I’ll tell you is what I was in the financial services business. If, if after meeting me twice, if you weren’t ready to do something, move a $2,000 IRA account, open an account for $25 for, for a child. Like if you weren’t able to do something, then I would ask a series of questions.

Speaker 2 (30:38):

And, and I would very much make it clear that, um, I have a lot to give, but the way that our compensation structure works is I can only give it for people who are actually clients of the firm. I don’t just do it. You know, like a, a YouTube person who’s, who’s out getting paid in that way. So getting comfortable with the, the, the conversation, understanding the value that you really bring and then, and having some, what I’ll call breadcrumbs along the way where the other party has to demonstrate their commitment as well. So that it’s not a lopsided relationship. Wow.

Speaker 1 (31:13):

I took so much from what you just said. And two of the things I wanna kind of tie into what we teach in the she cells, community is one is around self worth. Yeah. And I think that’s one of the things that I’ve, I’ve kind of come to the conclusion in my own life and seen for my clients too, is your level of income will never exceed your level of self worth hundred percent, hundred percent, right? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:36):

I mean, that, that, that is the governor, by the way. That’s, that’s how it

Speaker 1 (31:39):

Works. Yes. Yeah, exactly. So, so we do a lot of that inner work here in the people. We talk a lot about like, up-leveling your self worth and feeling worthy of the seven figures, six figure, whatever it is that you wanna make. Yep. Um, and I think that as you were talking about, like, it can’t be lopsided. I know for me, when I was earlier in my sales career, I always felt lower than my buyers. And I always felt like I was chasing and it was like, I had to bend over or backwards and I didn’t feel comfortable or confident asking for those, like you said, like the, their, their buyin breadcrumbs.

Speaker 2 (32:10):


Speaker 1 (32:11):

The breadcrumbs. I love that. Yeah. I love that. And I was, I was messaging with the client about this this morning about like, how long does she continue to pursue someone who’s maybe ghosting, maybe not. And like, this is, is not super popular, probably in the sales training world, but one of the things I’ve, I’ve just made the decision in my own life is like, I go where I’m wanted, not where I’m meet it. Like, there are so many people who could use this, but I am not gonna chase hundred percent. I’m not. So I’m cur I actually sounds like we’re a line, which I appreciate.

Speaker 2 (32:43):

Um, I I’ve, you know, I have to tell you that, um, I, over the founding of Lego going back to 2013, um, I remember by the way, the people who’ve ghosted me. Like, I’m, I’m very aware of it. And I’ll tell you, it’s a funny thing about the way the world worked. Um, because there’s, there’s not many of ’em, but it is really interesting how some of the people who ghosted me when they were in power, when they lost power, and then they were looking for a job, then they actually called me to say like, could you help me? And I couldn’t help, but remind them, like, do you remember when I needed your help? Yeah. And never even responded to me. Right. And so, so I mean, sometimes just being able to call it out because yeah. Not everybody’s oriented to think this way that, so that’s number one, number two.

Speaker 2 (33:31):

Um, at least I’ll tell you this, this point you just talked about with respect to up-leveling. I wanna make sure everybody’s clear on it. This is not some, um, affirmation of, I make a million dollars. I making a million, this, this isn’t about, uh, sort of externally putting something on top it’s about in your heart, literally believing that there’s value that exceeds what you are charging for, what you do. Mm. That that’s the key, right? That I’m, I’m not taking from you and everything you just described honestly, is why I think for so long women, didn’t go into sales. Coincidentally at Lego, our top two sellers are women. I love that top two. All right. I love that. And, and, and one of them has been the top since the beginning, since 2013, same person. She’s number one. All right. So, so what I will tell you is that, um, I think a lot of the things you’ve described are the reason they’re, they’re, they’re one of the reasons, um, as this culture has adapted that many super talented women, like you basically thought, I don’t really wanna go into sales because of that whole dynamic.

Speaker 2 (34:38):

And what you’re demonstrating to women now is guess what? You don’t have to play the game. That way. It’s almost like the rules were, the guy takes me out to dinner. He pays for dinner. And now I’m sort of obliged to stay in this for, you know, until 10 o’clock at night. Right. Versus no, actually we’re gonna do it a different way. We’re going Dutch. We’re gonna have a first meeting, we’ll have a coffee or a, a, a drink together. And, and depending upon how that goes, we’ll decide, or I’ll decide if there’s gonna be a second meeting. Mm. Right. So if, if you think about that and you think about, um, interviewing the prospect in the context of, is this something I, I really would want to help.

Speaker 1 (35:20):


Speaker 2 (35:21):

And then you, you, you start to find the persona of the people who are like that, and then it becomes fun, but otherwise it can be a real drag if you’re always chasing.

Speaker 1 (35:31):

Oh my gosh. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That’s so powerful. And that’s one of the things we, especially, especially for women, cuz we’re not wired as much to chase. So there’s just, there’s so many nuances that I think when we can all be in our respective power in terms of how we show up in our roles and how we, um, you know, how, how we draw in clients, work with clients. It’s like everyone wins. So this is, this is incredible. I have probably 15 more questions that we don’t have time for now. So I’ll have to have you back on the show, um, to dig in deeper. I wanna ask, I wanna ask two final questions first mark. Tell us where can people go to, to get the book, to find out about you and connect with you? Cuz I know they’re gonna wanna, um, connect further.

Speaker 2 (36:17):

Uh, you could go to mastering virtual, all one word, mastering virtual selling the book’s also available on Amazon, but at, at our own website, we’ve got a number of different resources, including an arsenal, which is a concept we talk about in the book, which is a collection of all of your best ideas in one place. And um, I’m on link. It’s mark Magna, the M a G N a CCCA and you can, uh, feel free to connect with me. Um, I really, I like the, the LinkedIn community. It’s, it’s a good fit. And so, um, if you’ve got people who want to reach out, I’d be happy to chat with them. And at least I wanna make sure that, that you remember that, um, you play two very distinct roles. One of course is an entrepreneur and, and as a salesperson and another one is a as a mother.

Speaker 2 (37:04):

Mm. So I tell you this for both the mothers and the fathers who are watching this yeah. Don’t underestimate the power that you as parents have to help inform the thinking of what your children believe is possible. Cause I can tell you in my case, there’s no question. Um, that it was my mother who I lived with cuz my parents were divorced. Um, who informed a lot of my belief system. She didn’t know about some of the people that you and I are, are familiar with, but she had tapped into it anyway. And she imparted into me this belief that of course you should be able to do that. Why wouldn’t you be able to do that? And when you, when you are exposed to that and you believe it, and then the world responds, it becomes this virtuous circle. You think I can do anything right? And so it’s, it’s in, in our culture, it’s been mothers even more than fathers who had that power. And the crazy thing about the pandemic is now many of us fathers are getting a chance to be around our children in a way that has really not been possible in the last hundred years of this culture, unless you are a farmer.

Speaker 1 (38:09):

Wow. Gosh, that’s so true. And I so appreciate you saying that too. Um, that’s one of the missions of this brand and this company is that it’s, it’s generational and I it’s one of, you know, you’re just, I’m, I’m guessing by knowing you that’s one of your goals and missions too, is it’s like we’re creating you and I

Speaker 2 (38:25):

Have children from multiple generations. It has to be generations.

Speaker 1 (38:30):

Well that ties in, I love how this flows, that ties in with the last thing I wanted to ask you, which I’ve gotta ask cuz it’s the she cells community, right? So you’ve got these two incredible daughters. What is it? What is the number one thing that you have learned from your daughters? That’s maybe a different perspective, a different, um, way of thinking about the world and things than you had before, before they were in your life.

Speaker 2 (38:54):

A great question. So just for full clarity, um, I have a total of four children. I have two boys and two girls. Yeah. Um, and so I’ll, so it’s, it’s interesting because I have, um, kind of my own little experiment, both with my older children and then, you know, based on sort of what I lived, I, I learned, um, with my younger children and um, really being the same person, both of them and having very, you know, very different outcomes in, in many ways. So what I will tell you is the, the concept of, um, being in your heart and you know, my younger daughter right now as an example, um, she’s one of these, these people at, uh, at two years old where she can provide one look and the, the power of a look, a natural, authentic, like heart look from your daughter, uh, from my daughter.

Speaker 2 (39:49):

Anyway, it’s one of those things that just melts you. And, and it’s, it’s the reason why songs are written about this. Like, there’s something of about that. It’s just, it’s just magic. Uh, number one. And I can tell you that from my, my elder daughter, um, who happens to be studying Marine biology, um, what I’ve learned from her is she’s been saying she’s wanted to do this since she’s eight years old and then 10 years old and then 12 years old and then 14 years old. And I, I kept like giving her all a lot of different reason. Like, are you sure? Is this really what you’re interested in? And, um, she’s gone through really difficult classes and uh, she’s stuck with it. And she’s, so I’ve just, I’ve learned this wonderful appreciation that she has her own. Self-generated perseverance in an industry that was largely mid L dominated, but happily she’s been exposed to lots and lots of other women in her college career who are in the same, uh, realm now. Wow. So the, the piece I’ve learned from her is how important it is to have a community of other people to keep you going. Um, when you’re trying to do something that not a lot of people like you have done. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:57):

Gosh, that’s so powerful. That’s so powerful. I love both of those. Thank you so much. My friend, this was such a fun conversation. I knew it was, I knew it was gonna be, but it was such a fun conversation. And I’m just, I’m so excited about, um, I’m grateful. I will say this I’m grateful that you are at the helm of, um, a very significant company in the sales industry because of who you are and the change that you’re affecting. So, um, so that, that makes me feel good about our future and um, and where we’re going. So thank you for your time. Thank you for writing this book. I highly, highly highly recommend for everyone listening, go out and get mastering virtual selling connect with mark on LinkedIn, um, phenomenal thought leader. And we just appreciate you so much.

Speaker 2 (41:45):

Well, at least I’ll leave you with this, uh, particularly for the women in your audience. The beauty of the, what life is life in 2022 is, uh, the buying process is actually much more aligned to the feminine mindset today than it was in the past. So if ever there was a time that there was a natural advantage to using what makes women unique it’s now because the way people and buyers in particular want to interact tends to be the way women prefer to communicate versus the older model of a more dominant trying to, you know, sort of force a sale. Yeah. So I hope people take away that, uh, they’re at the right place at the right time, especially those who are part of your community to recognize that, uh, you, you, haven’t only done it, but that you are generous in sharing what you’ve done so they can do their own version of it for themselves. Mm.

Speaker 1 (42:45):

Thank you so much. Thank you. I received that. Uh, all right. This is an amazing conversation. Um, thank you again and thank you so much for listening. And so as you listen, and you know, hopefully we’re taking notes cause there’s a lot of good stuff in here. Take a screenshot tag, both me and mark on social, let us know what your biggest takeaway was. And I’m so grateful for you being a member of the she cells community. So I will see you next week. On our next episode of she sells radio by out.


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