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Mastering B2B Sales with Richard Harris


Today’s interview is going to be so insightful and helpful, especially for you if you’re in B2B sales or you want to build more corporate partnerships. 


My guest today, Richard Harris, is someone I’ve come to really respect and admire in the sales world. We were both honored to be recognized as Salesforce Top Sales Influencers this year, and when I came in to the program it was evident that Richard was already a leader in the group, had been in the program before, but helped me feel so welcomed and supported, even though I’m a complete rookie and had no idea what I was doing.


As I’ve gotten to know him better my respect has continued to grow for him. He’s a 2X Salesforce sales leader to follow, the founder of the Harris Consulting Group where his clients include Google, Salesforce, Zoom, and he helps put out the annual State of Mental Health in Sales Report too. He is not only incredible in his sales roles, but also cares about the health and wellbeing of all of us in sales and openly shares his own story of overcoming challenges.


Show Notes:

[2:41] – Welcome to the show, Richard!

[4:46] – Richard shares his sales origin story. He always knew he would be in sales.

[7:23] – It all started at The Gap for both Richard and Elyse.

[8:30] – Although he works with a lot of huge companies, it isn’t all about the corporate world for him.

[10:17] – It all begins by being a giver. Make deposits over withdrawals.

[12:10] – Listen as Richard shares a story of flipping the script to connect with a huge brand.

[14:19] – Sometimes it is worth it to take a risk and be “gutsy”.

[15:39] – Make the time to say yes more.

[17:08] – By having this mindset, you will weed out the clients you don’t want.

[18:11] – Richard shares the experience of a “blow up” with a large company.

[20:18] – He admits that sometimes ego gets in the way.

[22:07] – What are the states of ego?

[23:34] – 95% of it all is psychology and mindset.

[24:34] – A lot of women make themselves small.

[25:51] – Oftentimes, we place the prospect on a pedestal.

[27:10] – Men in sales have this same issue but as they were growing up, they were taught to cover it up.

[28:26] – It’s not our job to do business with everyone we talk to. It’s our job to do business with people who want to do business with us.

[29:34] – “Our most successful customers have done it this way.”

[30:43] – Earn the right to ask questions.

[32:18] – Richard and Elyse do a role play to demonstrate a respect contract.

[34:00] – There’s a difference between having a script and sounding scripted.

[35:19] – Everyone wants to be treated fairly. It levels the playing field.

[37:16] – Share your Respect Contract with Richard. He’ll help you solidify it.

[38:51] – When you were at peak performance, what was happening?

[40:17] – Mental Health is incredibly important.

[42:01] – Richard opens up about his mental health and why he continues to see a therapist.

[43:31] – There are strategies to increase focus on one thing and to stop focusing on the others.

Connect with Richard:

Call and Text: 415-596-9149

The Harris Consulting Group Website

LinkedIn  |  Twitter  |  Facebook

Links and Resources:

Instagram  |  LinkedIn  |  YouTube

She Sells with Elyse Archer Home Page

Speaker 1 (00:02):

Welcome to she sells radio today’s interview is going to be so insightful, so helpful. And I would say, especially for you, if you are in B2B sales or you wanna build more corporate partnerships, which I’m excited about these days, I know a lot of my listeners are too. So my guest today, Richard Harris is someone who I’ve come to really respect and admire in the sales world. And we were both honored to be recognized as Salesforce, top sales influencers this year. And when I came into the program, I’m like this newbie I’m intimidated. I have no idea what I’m doing. It’s quickly evident that Richard was already a leader in the group. He was a two time influencer in the program and was just so welcoming, helped me feel so supported, um, helped me kind of navigate the ropes. And as I’ve gotten to know him better, my respect for him has just continued to grow, which is why I wanted to bring him to you on the show today.

Speaker 1 (00:55):

So like I said, he’s a two times Salesforce sales leader to follow he’s the founder of the Harris consulting group, where his clients include companies, little companies like Google, Salesforce, zoom, and he helps put out the annual state of mental health in sales report as well. So as you hear about him, you’re gonna be like, okay, this guy’s a total sales badass. And he also cares deeply about the health and the wellbeing of all of us in sales. And he openly shares some of his own story of overcoming challenges too. So Richard, welcome to she sales radio. We are so

Speaker 2 (01:28):

Happy. I’m just know what I think. I’m thank you. And I think I’m just gonna take that little snippet and I’m just gonna play it for my wife. Every time I walk in the room, <laugh> like, you know that what a badass I am.

Speaker 1 (01:39):

Don’t I need to like me. Don’t do it. <laugh>

Speaker 2 (01:42):

Thank you. Thank you. I, I appreciate it. And the feeling’s really mutual. Like I was really excited to get to know you and, um, you know, you’ve been on the surfing sales podcast and then, uh, we’ll tease the crowd and let ’em know that, um, through our conversation with you on the podcast, we’ve decided to do a live session, which we’ll announce, uh, be the end of September, but, um, how to go from six to seven figures as a salesperson, which I think is really critical because nobody talks about it and I know you’ve done it in your business and we’ve got another great friend of ours. I in cognac, who’s gonna do it. Um, and he did it. And so we’re just gonna really try and help people, you know, get to that dream. We hear about it, we see it. We’re like, how, how do I get there? So anyway, so enough about me, but thank you so much. And um, like I said, the feeling’s really mutual.

Speaker 1 (02:26):

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, I’m so excited for that and this will come out prior to that. So that’s great. So people can go ahead and get that on their calendars. Um, and yeah, we’ve had Ian on the show before too, his episode was super popular, so it’ll be, oh,

Speaker 2 (02:38):

I didn’t know that. Awesome.

Speaker 1 (02:39):

Yeah. Yeah. So it’ll be, I think by then all four, like everyone will know all four of us, um, at least cool. She sells for. So, you know, one of the things Richard that I thought was so interesting when you had me on surf and sales and your podcast, co-host he said something to the extent of like, you are a rockstar at collecting brands. And I was like, that’s such an interesting way to think about it, cuz I think, you know, for many of us and everyone who’s listening, they have a different business model. They have different things they do. But I do know a lot of our listeners they’re either in B2B sales or they want, maybe they’re an entrepreneur and they wanna get more leverage by working with companies and brands rather than one off buyers. And I thought, I want to very selfishly use this time to learn about that from you learn about your superpower. Yeah. Talk about how we do it cuz you do it the right. It’s like the right way of selling. Right. So I, I wanna say that first and foremost, but I think before we get into that, just a little bit of context on your background. So you have over 20 years experience in technology and SAS sales, tell us, I’m always curious, like the origin story, did you know sales was what you were gonna go into? Yeah,

Speaker 2 (03:51):

I, yeah, as my buddy, you know, you alluded to Scott Lee, my buddy, um, and uh, and, and partner on stuff. Yeah. I was always knew I was gonna be in sales. Like I’m the real,

Speaker 1 (04:01):

If you you’re probably like the one person on the planet.

Speaker 2 (04:03):

Yeah. I’m the total rare breed like, so in high school, my first job was at the gap and like, this is how I’ll date myself. Not only did I have hair, um, um, but gap only sold Levi’s jeans. Like they didn’t even have their own brand. Right. Wow. I didn’t, that was

Speaker 1 (04:24):

A thing. Um,

Speaker 2 (04:25):

And so I always liked that and I was like, oh, this is cool. Like was in high school, first job, you know, I tried, you know, for those of you who old enough, no, there was a record store where you went and bought your records and tapes and stuff. So before CDs, um, so I tried a bunch of different stuff in the mall and got into the gap and was like, oh my God, this is great. Um, jeans and t-shirts. And then I also knew that early in my career that would stand out assuming, you know, I was pretty confident the brand would stick, you know, cause it was pretty popular. Um, I was like, well that’s gonna help me forever. Right. Um, and then the first sales process I learned was called gap act, greet approach, product knowledge, add on close. And thank you.

Speaker 2 (05:09):

So whether they had a whole process, they taught us, you know, we were supposed to upsell all the time. So we, we sold a pair of jeans, you know, it was like two units per sale. So what, it didn’t even matter if it was something that was 99 cents on sale or if it was a pair of socks or a belt or a shirt, it was just making sure you constantly added stuff. And they, you know, they sort of taught us like little stuff. Like someone comes to the counter with their one pair of jeans and you know, we used to have this big sock wall behind us. We grab a pair like, Hey, these would go great with that. Or here’s a cool belt. What do you think? Like, um, so it was just really fun. It was cool. Um, so I always knew I was gonna be in sales, got a general business degree, got outta college, first job back at the gap. Yeah. And um, because I was like, all right, jeans and t-shirts I was never, you know, my mom will tell all kinds of stories about how I really resisted dressing up and stuff like that. So, um, so it was a good fit for me. Right. And immediately a managerial experience, um, which may or may not have been the right thing. But, um, that’s, that was the origin story of my sales piece.

Speaker 1 (06:15):

Got it. Like

Speaker 2 (06:16):

We can go into more, but I’ll shut up cuz I know you wanna ask questions. So

Speaker 1 (06:19):

Yeah. No, I think it’s, it’s fun to hear that because someone looks at and they, you know, they hear your intro and they hear the companies you’re working with now and to hear that’s where it started way back at the gap. One of my first sales jobs was at gap too, but I, there were gap jeans by then I think. Yeah. I didn’t know Levi’s at gap. Was,

Speaker 2 (06:36):

Did you have big sweat wall, the big wall of sweats

Speaker 1 (06:39):


Speaker 2 (06:40):

You would know? You’d be,

Speaker 1 (06:41):

I don’t think I did <laugh>

Speaker 2 (06:43):

It was like, it was this massive wall of sweatpants and sweatshirts. We sold them all. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:47):

So yeah. That’s so funny. I love, I love learning stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (06:51):

Did you do gap act? Did they get to have that?

Speaker 1 (06:53):

No, you’re you’re talking about the stuff. Like we didn’t have any of this, but I was like, I was, I was young. I think I obviously I was legal, like old enough to work, but I was holiday help. I just remember folding everything and then it getting demolished.

Speaker 2 (07:06):

That’s still annoying

Speaker 1 (07:06):

Folding everything. And it got demolished. Yeah. <laugh>

Speaker 2 (07:09):

My wife folds my t-shirts and she’ll uh, like adjusted it now. She’ll kind of roll her eyes cause I’ll refold a certain

Speaker 1 (07:17):

Way. It doesn’t leave you. <laugh>

Speaker 2 (07:20):

Like, I, I even catch myself now like, okay, these are my clothes. Nobody’s coming to see me.

Speaker 1 (07:24):

So, oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (07:26):

That’s I would like to say one thing. Um, thank you for mentioning all the big clients. I have a lot of small clients too. Like I want people, like, I just got back from doing something with a startup that has three sales people. So I just want people to know that, you know, in my heart of hearts, I really love that whole world. So it’s not just the corporate world for me. Um, for sure. But, um, but anyway, I just wanna make sure people kind of, I have context for both sides of it, so

Speaker 1 (07:51):

Totally. Yeah. And I think that’s important to mention because a lot of our listeners, they, you know, if they are an entrepreneur, they’re either maybe they haven’t even had the, their first sales hire yet or they’re kind thinking about it or they are leading a smaller sales team too. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so I think, you know, what we talk about today will apply regardless yeah. Of where you are, which is important. And I, I, I think I wanna start off, there’s so many places I wanna go with you, but I wanna start off with really some of the, like how you build these relationships because, you know, we talked on the surf and sales podcast about mm-hmm <affirmative>, it is a long game mm-hmm <affirmative> to build these corporate partnerships and to, um, you know, to partner with them at the depth and level that you have. And, you know, I don’t, we haven’t talked a ton about B2B sales, um, here on the show. So I think this is gonna be a really good conversation to have. So sure. I would love to hear just like off the cuff, what are some of your top tips for building these corporate partnerships for, um, and for starting to really master B2B sales.

Speaker 2 (08:53):

So I’m gonna gonna redial reframe the word corporate partnerships. Um, perfect. Cause those, when I hear that phrase, I think of things like sponsors to my podcast and stuff I do with Salesforce, but I’m not sure if that’s what you meant or if you meant, well, how do you just start a relationship with a business and a client? So I wanted to,

Speaker 1 (09:13):

I let’s talk, you know what, let’s talk both if we can let’s let’s start. Yeah. Yeah’s fine with the relationship with the client and the business, but then I think there’d be in the other two.

Speaker 2 (09:20):

So it’s always about givers. Right. And being a giver, um, in life. And I think we know the more good karma you put out, the more you you get back. Um, you know, I can’t can’t remember who phrased it, but someone talked about making deposits versus withdrawals. Mm. And so for me, and I think you, I think you do this too, like as part of your podcast in general and just sort of how you’ve approached your business is we just try to give out information and ideas. Right. And for us, oftentimes it’s on LinkedIn. Um, and we just give tips and suggestions and I tell people all the time don’t ever worry about trying to become the influencer. Um, just concentrate on putting out good content, the readers, the people will find you. And you know, if you decide to do something, um, you know, don’t worry if nobody sees it, cuz guess what?

Speaker 2 (10:11):

Nobody knows. If nobody saw it, nobody knows. Right. And you, and you’re also trying to find your voice. So for me, it was always about giving first and posting stuff. And I started this stuff in 2010, nine ish. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, for no reason other than I just thought I could help. Like, I wasn’t sure. I don’t even know why I just did. Um, so that’s one thing, you know, zoom was one of my favorite stories. Um, it was a, it was a huge win and then a massive crash. Um, I got prospected by someone at this point, I was already doing training and consulting and I got prospected by BDR SDR. And um, I think I was already using it and tried to upsell me and I flipped it. And I said, I’ll take your meeting if you get me a meeting with your head of sales.

Speaker 1 (11:00):

Ooh. Um, how, okay, so super quick, because I wanna hear the rest of this story. I know this is gonna be good. And I wanna pause on that, cuz that takes some guts. So yeah. Was that just natural for you to stay here?

Speaker 2 (11:14):

I’d already established myself as a brand. I already had a little bit of a, of a, of a following, um, so to speak and I’d worked with some other successful early stage clients, but no one quite liked zoom.

Speaker 1 (11:27):


Speaker 2 (11:28):

And uh, lo and behold, the guy did it. Um, but I mean, I’ll tell you another brave story. That’s not about me. It’s about someone else that happened music. Okay, cool. But, um, and so I got a call with him and I said, Hey, I’ll do, I’ll tell you what, I’ll do a lunch and learn for an hour for free. I’ll come in and do an hour. And I email him the day before and I’m like, Hey, you know, I’m gonna come in, you know, for lunch and do this. And he’s like, oh, we thought you were gonna do it on zoom. Do you really wanna come down to San Jose? And I’m like, like, yeah, I’ll come down. Like who? Of course I will. Yeah. Ended up getting a great client out of it.

Speaker 1 (11:59):

Um, so key lesson just to PO, so like key lesson, there is like, again, the generosity, like let me go above and beyond to yes. Mm-hmm

Speaker 2 (12:05):

<affirmative> okay. So I think that’s a key thing. And I think I resisted that idea. I think someone wants to ask me to do that early in my consulting career, after I had like five clients and I thought I was all the and it was in hindsight what a stupid move by me. Um, but the zoom thing worked out pretty well for a while. Um, and then, um, the other story I wanna relate is, you know, I don’t know. I think you’re there too of like LinkedIn only lets us get to 30001st degree connections. Right? Like

Speaker 1 (12:34):

The I’m not there yet. I love that. You think I’m there? I appreciate that. But no, <laugh>, we’re not quite

Speaker 2 (12:39):

There, but then you can have followers. And so right.

Speaker 1 (12:43):


Speaker 2 (12:43):

There’s like four or five months ago, this woman linked in with me, she was head of an SDR team. Um, and she was, she was not, um, she wasn’t super social, so I’m kind of conscious. I’m kind of a Dick about, sorry if I can’t say that, but my name’s

Speaker 1 (12:58):

It’s it’s out. You said it. No, you’re fine. Go

Speaker 2 (12:59):

Ahead. I’m I’m a Richard sometimes. And I was like, Hey, I, I can’t accept anybody. I’m you know, but if you follow me, we’ll see each other’s content. Yeah. And she emailed me back and she, or LinkedIn me back or message. She says, well, Shirley, you could go get rid of one person so I can connect with you. Hmm. And this woman was early, mid twenties. And at first I was a little taken aback cuz my, my ego gets like I have an ego. Right. Then I sat back and I was like, wow, that’s gutsy. And so sure enough, I did. And I responded to her and um, I said, you know what? You’ve earned it. Absolutely. So, um, nice. So it’s not about how Richard did it when he was already a little established, like it’s about just taking that, like what’s the worst thing that’s gonna happen to this woman?

Speaker 2 (13:46):

I’m gonna say, sorry. No. Yeah. Right. And then if I turned around and, and turned into a Richard and was like, how dare you, blah, blah, blah. Well then she shouldn’t connect with me anyway. So yeah. So I share this with your readers, cuz it’s more about anybody can be gutsy and nothing bad happens when you’re gutsy. Um, a good friend of mine, Scott Barker came to our surf sales event and he said his goal one year was to say yes more. Hmm. I was like, that’s a really good, simple goal, particularly for a guy like me. Cause I, I tend to naturally say no to things. Yeah. And um, and it’s interesting what happens when you do that and I’ve had other opportunities come up just cause I was like, mm sure. Yeah. Let’s have that conversation. Yeah. And so that would be like, one thing is just say yes more, right? Like give it 15 minutes or 30 minutes of your time. No matter how busy you are, find that space. We can find it. And um, it was a really important lesson. I learned this lesson about four years ago. So it’s not like I learned this in my twenties. Right. So, right,

Speaker 1 (14:47):

Right. Yeah. So, so I think a few things, things there that I’m taking away, I mean, one is just the leading with generosity and leading with giving, which I think is I think any business approach, like that’s gonna pay off. Right. And you can’t deal.

Speaker 2 (15:02):

I life, I, it could be marriage. It can relationship. It could be in business. It can be in friendship. It can be in everything. Yeah. But yes,

Speaker 1 (15:11):

Mm-hmm, <affirmative> for sure. And it can’t be with the mindset of like, I know I’m gonna get something back or you think you’ve gotta get something back from that person, but just, just giving. Um, and then too, you know, I love the gutsy angle. Cause I think, you know, especially if we’re looking to sell into bigger companies or start, you know, start really, really ramping up, like the level of sales we’re doing, how often is it easy to just talk ourselves out of it and say, well, that person already has a partner. They already have, you know, 20 vendors beating down their door every day. Why are they gonna wanna hear from me? And so just taking that away and saying like, what’s the worst that can happen. So I think a lot of times we don’t even go for it cuz we play out, you know, this person hates us and they blacklist us and we don’t even go for it. So you gave, I think a powerful reframe around that.

Speaker 2 (16:01):

So, and you know what, the worst thing that happened, someone will weed themselves out of your life that you probably didn’t want anyway.

Speaker 1 (16:09):


Speaker 2 (16:09):

Right. It’s kind of like, maybe you did want that client or that prospect. I get it. But do you want a high maintenance person?

Speaker 1 (16:18):


Speaker 2 (16:18):

Now, now there’s a balance in there and B2B sales of, well, you don’t take no for the first answer when you’re prospecting and stuff like that. Like I there’s a balance in there. Right, right. Um, but it’s okay to let people self select in the right moment and timeframe. And so I think the goal of sales and um, how do I do my job, knowing that I’ve asked the right questions, that I’ve earned the right to ask them that I’ve asked them, go to bed, sleeping well at night, knowing I’ve done my job and knowing that sometimes it’s okay to get, to let something go, you know? So it’s, and it’s a balance. It’s not perfect. But mm-hmm <affirmative> to your point of, I think you said like reframing it. That’s where I try to encourage people to think.

Speaker 1 (17:00):

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I’m curious. So when you went and I know you said with zoom, like it was huge. And then you said there was a crash, so I don’t know how much you can or, you know oh,

Speaker 2 (17:09):

I can tell the whole, yeah. So

Speaker 1 (17:10):

What that was

Speaker 2 (17:11):

Yeah. Quick version is I was partnering with another company and that company decided to run a blog post written by another sales trainer.

Speaker 1 (17:19):


Speaker 2 (17:20):

And that sales trainer literally blew up one of Zoom’s reps and um, by name mentioned them by name. So here’s this sales leading industry that I partner with posting that they knew that I was in a zoom conversation. Yeah. Cause I had a business relationship with this partnership. Yeah. And they posted that blog thinking controversy is cool, which in most cases it is, I get a call from the head of marketing. I get ahead of like, how could you post blah, blah, blah, this and blah, blah, blah, that, and you know, and so I said, so I got on the call and, and uh, you know, we scheduled a call and you know, they were, they were trying to be polite and they’re like, well, you know, Richard, you know, duh, you know, we just don’t think it’s appropriate. And duh, you know, meanwhile, I got the blog pulled down in like less than an hour.

Speaker 2 (18:08):

So nobody saw. Yeah. And, uh, and so I finally, this is where I’m a Richard and I said, look, I’ll take my lumps and you can punch me in the face, but you’re not walking out of this conversation, UN bruised. Wow. And I literally said to them, I said, I have no control over it. Do either of you have control over your blog, do you see every blog post that goes out? They’re like, no, I’m like, okay. Then why would you expect that? And they’re like, well, it’s sort of out of our hands in marketing’s decision. And I said, okay, so marketing’s controlling your ability to grow your business. They’re like, well, no, not really. And I said, well, wait a minute yesterday before this happened, I was your sales trainer. You were about to sign a year long contract because you’ve seen what I’ve done already.

Speaker 2 (18:51):

It’s already working in your growing revenue from it. And now this is gonna stop. It what’s changed in my ability to deliver training that your team can use. Mm well, it’s out of our hands, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, it’s just kind of like, and I just called him out and I said, that’s what I said, like, you’re getting bruised. Like, just so you know, like this is inappropriate, you know, it’s inappropriate and you guys just don’t have the guts to go back to them and say what I just said to you, do you? Mm. And I just put ’em on the spot. And in hindsight, I probably should not have, this is where Richard’s ego gets in the way. Yeah. Um, but I felt like I had to defend myself. Um, you know, and yeah. You know, now at this point I’ve never reapproached and that’s shame on me, shame on me for not going a year later or two years later and say, Hey, I’d love to have a conversation. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:39):

So, well, but one, you know, one thing from what you said that I think many of us can learn from. Cause I think more often than not, I’m just thinking about the conversations I have behind the scenes with my clients, you know, many of whom are women and they will, the, the bigger conversation is often, like they feel less than the buyer. So they feel like they aren’t equals, they feel like sometimes they have to be like what they have to bend over backwards for the client. Or they’re like overly apologetic with things or, you know, in that circumstance, it might just be like, oh my gosh, I’m so sorry. What do you need? Right. And, and you really, I mean, maybe it wasn’t overcorrect, I don’t know <laugh> but it was probably

Speaker 2 (20:17):

In night, night. It’s one of those things where I should like, even now I probably could reach out to them and apologize to those people who are no longer there. This is before they went public and everything.

Speaker 1 (20:25):

So, yeah, sure, sure. But I think

Speaker 2 (20:28):

That wasn’t overcorrect, but that’s, that’s who I am. So it’s kind of, yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:33):

You know, I think, I think we can borrow something from that though. Yeah. And talk about like, just having that posture of equals with your clients cuz when you are selling, like we’ve got a lot of coaches, consultants listening and when you are selling into bigger organizations, a lot of times there is that energy of, I need to do whatever they say I’m gonna like bend over backwards.

Speaker 2 (20:51):


Speaker 1 (20:52):

So tell, yeah. Talk about that.

Speaker 2 (20:54):

That’s really good. So I agree with you and that’s probably, that’s one of the reasons I teach a, I didn’t create this. It was created in the fifties by Eric burn called transactional analysis. It talks about your ego states, not the ad, the ego and the super ego. Essentially we have three ego states, a child ego that says, I want it where buying decisions occur. That’s our emotional being. When we lose a deal, it hurts. We have a parent ego state, which is reflective often critical, right or wrong, appropriate or inappropriate. Then we have an adult ego and it passes judgment. We have an adult ego state, which is pros and cons pluses and minuses. And that adult ego state gives us permission to move forward. Okay. Um, so it’s so it’s, so I teach this constantly, um, and it’s to teach people to understand how humans think and react, um, in the moment. And it helps you understand that quote unquote they’re reject, they’re not really rejecting you. They’re rejecting the service. In my example that I gave, they were, I took it as a personal rejection cuz it was a personal rejection, but um, and I let my critical ego step in <laugh> my parents. Yeah. So I, you know, yes, I teach it. I’m much better at it over the years. Um, anyway, I’ll pause there. Cause I know I can rant and I don’t want to.

Speaker 1 (22:10):

Yeah, yeah, no, it’s, it’s I’ve never heard that first of all. So that’s, that’s super fascinating and I think it’s

Speaker 2 (22:16):

Really good. Yeah. If you don’t know Eric burn, it’s really good. He’s also written some stuff on games theory and stuff like that, that talks about which you can relate to the buyer and seller stuff. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, so I think that’s super cool too. So like it’s really good stuff. Yeah. I like the psychology of stuff.

Speaker 1 (22:31):

Yeah, no, I mean it’s, it’s everything right. That’s that’s kind of what we teach here is like 95% of it is psychology. It’s mindset. Mm-hmm <affirmative> it’s the inner game. So, um, I

Speaker 2 (22:40):

Back I question for you though. Okay. So you talked about, and, and you mentioned it that often women, women will feel not of equal ground

Speaker 1 (22:51):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Speaker 2 (22:52):

What does that really mean though? Cause I may have a suggestion, but I want to, I wanna understand more context. I, I think I know what I hear it a lot, like in job interviews and stuff like that, but

Speaker 1 (23:02):

Right, right.

Speaker 2 (23:03):

In your context of she sells radio and in your business, what’s that mean?

Speaker 1 (23:07):

Yeah, for sure. No. And I I’d love to hear whatever the suggestion is. So I, the context is, you know, I’ll just, I’ll give you an example and I’ve, I’ve defaulted into these tendencies too. I’m better with it, but it still sometimes comes up with like placing the buyer above us or especially depending on who it is and what the dollar amount is at stake, yada yada. Um, so yeah, I mean, I, I was working with a client, this was a client a couple months back and she noticed like her default mode when she she’s a super smart woman, like brilliant. One of the smartest women I’ve ever met, but almost felt like ashamed of that growing up. Like she couldn’t be that cuz she would be told by people, oh you’re too, too loud to this, to that. So she started just like making herself small in order to fit in mm-hmm <affirmative> and that’s such a common story with the women in our community. Mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative>, they’re brilliant. They’re smart. They’re talented. But somewhere along the way, they felt like that was too much. So they start shrinking. So she would find that when she got on a call with a potential client, she would kind of go back into that little girl state, like the child ego, like you talked about. Right.

Speaker 2 (24:08):


Speaker 1 (24:08):

And she wasn’t coming at it as equals with so I, so I think that scenario is what I’m talking about here or a variation of it. So I’d love to hear so

Speaker 2 (24:18):

Yeah. So here’s my, here are my thoughts. There’s no data behind what I’m gonna say, but this is how my mind shift stuff. So one that’s pretty normal. We were all raised by parents. And when we think we hear that tone or hear that tone, we revert to the child when we think we are having that judgment. Now, if you remember what I said, the child ego state says I wanted. So, so often we’ll walk into a sales conversation and will somewhat intent. Subconsciously might be the better way to say it, of put them on a pedestal, right. They’re our parent and we don’t want to disappoint them. And however, oftentimes that prospect is a child. In fact, they’re a spoiled child cuz they wanted their way, not even over way. And so I remind people of that and it’s not a hundred percent true. Like, look, you can get into pricing negotiations and, and people, you know, they’ll say, well aren’t they being judgey when they look at my price, well for a split second, but what they’re really saying is I want a lower price, which means there’re a child.

Speaker 1 (25:28):

Hmm. Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:29):

Right. So, and, and these ego states, you know, they fly, like you can start signature more and flip it in the other. So I, I try to give people that context so that you can go, oh, so now if I become an adult and think about pros and cons and explain it. Yeah. And then what it’s called a nurturing parent where I say, Hey, here’s, you know, here’s an appropriate or inappropriate thing to think about. If I do it from a nurturing perspective, I can raise their from child or lower them from critical parent to adult so I can get them, the adult ration amongst it. So hear it all the time. It’s imposter syndrome, by the way, every man has it too. Don’t let him fool. Even we were just taught, you know, don’t cry, you can’t cry. Right. And that’s where that ego comes from. So again, I’ll shut up again. Cause I know you wanna ask.

Speaker 1 (26:23):

Yeah. Oh there’s so, oh my gosh. There’s so much. Yeah. This could be a, like, I could keep you here for four hours talking about

Speaker 2 (26:29):

This. I do it. I’ll do it.

Speaker 1 (26:31):

<laugh> right. No, this is so fascinating. So I think just having to me, what I’m hearing you say is there’s so much self-awareness, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, that’s involved in the process and being able to see, oh, this person may not be showing up in their best light right now. Really it’s their inner child and this is what’s going on and how do I speak? Like how do I write, raise them up to a higher standard while also myself not defaulting back to those old triggers and programs, um, which is critical in any selling situation, including B2B, cuz you’re doing that with multiple different people, usually along the, along the buying process. So

Speaker 2 (27:05):

By the way, I’m judging them too. Yeah. I’m judging to see if they’re worthy of my time.

Speaker 1 (27:11):

Well, I appreciate you saying that. Talk a little bit more about that cuz it’s I think it’s important set shift. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:16):

You know, our, our goal, I heard this from Nick made a, the founder gain site. This is when they were my second client when they had like 15 employees mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and he, he was given the advice that, you know, it’s not our job to do business with everybody. We talk to it’s our job to do business with the people who want to do business with us, which I thought was really compelling. So there’s a little bit of judgment in there for me. Yeah. And some of that could be my own ego. I’ll recognize it. Some of it could be a protective shell. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, I also know that I am my own business owner. So like there I am my own CRO if I lose a deal, if I tell someone to F off then so be it it’s on me. I don’t care different if you’re carrying the bag for another company and a brand and lose things.

Speaker 2 (28:03):

Yeah. Um, but there’s still a way to do that. And you know, we acqui ask so much to the, to the buyer that by the time we actually get to closing, we’ve given up so much that we have no leverage. Mm. So the goal is to find professional ways to explain a best practice. Well, here’s our best practice. Like this is one of my favorite lines. Hey, I hear what you’re trying to say, Elise, here’s what our best customers tell us about us. Hmm. And even better than that is our most successful customers have done it this way. Ah, our most successful customers because who doesn’t wanna be a successful.

Speaker 1 (28:47):

Exactly. Exactly.

Speaker 2 (28:48):

And so it’s a polite way to do that without telling them no. Yes. Um, and, and there’s one more part of that phrase of, I make sure we avoid the word, but Hey, I hear what you’re saying, Elise, but here’s what our most successful clients say, which is not, which is negative to me. Right. Versus, Hey Elise, I hear what you’re having to say. And can I tell you what our most successful customers telling you? So now I’m saying, Hey, I hear you. And I’d like to keep the conversation going, not dismiss what you just said. So anyway, that’s,

Speaker 1 (29:23):

It’s like improv, right? Where you don’t say the, but you always, it’s always an and

Speaker 2 (29:26):

You always use an and always use an

Speaker 1 (29:28):

And oh, that’s so good. I love, I mean, what a good reframe. So I I’d love to dig in a little bit and we are not gonna have time to go deep this, but I know so much of your methodology is about earning the right to ask questions. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so I’m no doubt the applies, you know, I know you coach and train a ton of sales reps. You also probably use this in your own sales process, your own B2B sales process. Can you share more about that? What does that mean and how do we implement that in our sales process?

Speaker 2 (29:57):

Yeah. So there’s, there’s a thing that I call a respect contract, um, that I use at the beginning of every call first, second or third, where I confirm time goals, potential outcomes. Um, and then a transition statement so that I can make sure we get out of this thing and into qualification discovery. Sure. And I’ll I’ll role play with you real quick. Um, but it’s the goal is to come back to that point of, well, how do I start with equal footing?

Speaker 1 (30:29):


Speaker 2 (30:30):

Right. And by doing this, I’m respecting myself and them. Like, I’m not making any demand of them. I’m just respecting myself and it’s very conversational and it, and it goes like this. So by the way, for people listening, Elise and I have not talked about this, so there’s no, uh,

Speaker 1 (30:46):

We have, I have no idea where we’re going

Speaker 2 (30:48):

We’re yet. So this is what it sounds like. It’s uh, Hey Elise, how are you?

Speaker 1 (30:53):

I’m amazing. How are you? Great.

Speaker 2 (30:55):

Great. Thank you for asking. Hey, I’ve got us down for 30 minutes. Does that still work today?

Speaker 1 (30:59):

Yeah. That’s perfect. Thank you for asking.

Speaker 2 (31:00):

Yeah. Any hard stops.

Speaker 1 (31:03):

Uh, I, I do have something right at the 30 minute mark, so. Okay,

Speaker 2 (31:05):

Cool. So what, what we’ll, what I’d like to do is at 25 minutes, we’ll just call a timeout and we’ll see where we’re at and we’ll assess where we’re going. If it makes sense for another call, if not, it’s okay. Um, and I think at least since this is our first conversation, you know, I think we’re on the same page of like, this is really fact finding for both of us. I want to ask you some questions. I know you’re gonna ask me questions. I want to answer all of them and just go from there. Is there something in particular you’d like to cover?

Speaker 1 (31:32):

Yeah. You know, I saw, um, I, I saw on your website that you offer blah, blah, blah, in your training. And I was curious about that for our team. So I, I wanna make sure we cover that

Speaker 2 (31:42):

Great. Um, which we will. I appreciate that. So, and, and before we go there, I just want you to know that, you know, if at any point in this conversation, ease or future, when you feel like it’s not a good fit, just say, so I promise you’re not gonna offend me. Um, and likewise, if I discover I can’t help you, if you ask me for something I don’t do, I will tell you, and then I’ll point you in the direction of the people who you should talk to. Um, and we kind of all know our swim lanes. And so our goal is to just, you know, put good karma out there. Um, so is that fair?

Speaker 1 (32:13):

Totally fair. Yeah. I appreciate

Speaker 2 (32:15):

That. And uh, and that way I don’t have to send you those checking out, reaching, reaching in, reaching out, checking in, touching base emails that I know you hate

Speaker 1 (32:21):

Sending. I love getting those.

Speaker 2 (32:23):

Yeah. Don’t you, I want you to say,

Speaker 1 (32:24):


Speaker 2 (32:24):

Think. Great. So, um, we’ll ask about how many of your sales team sends on a regular basis in a minute, but, um, Ooh. <laugh> just so I know Elise, how, uh, what’s even prompting the conversation.

Speaker 1 (32:36):

Yeah. You know, we’ve got, um,

Speaker 2 (32:38):

We can, can stop, right? Yeah. Time out. Okay. So that’s my respect contract. That’s where I teach everybody. And you know, people, listen, if you go back and listen to this and go, wow, I don’t want to, you know, that’s a, you know, it’s a script. Yeah. It was

Speaker 1 (32:52):

Good. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:54):

Yeah. What I wanna make sure people do. If you actually try to go back and transcribe this right. One, there’s a difference between having a script and sounding scripted. I don’t ever want anybody to sound scripted. Mm. Find your authentic voice. Right. Um, humor is my authentic voice. So may have been the wrong thing, you know, for at least, cause I know you, I probably subconsciously took the jab of your email. Yeah. Some senior VP of general electric I may or may not. Right. Although I probably would. Yeah. But that’s also a way too, for me to see if they’re the right kind of client, are they gonna get, um, so that’s the respect contract. Yeah. And I have a similar thing if it’s customer success cuz customer success can’t um, well, if it’s not a good fit, you just let us know <laugh> if you can’t.

Speaker 2 (33:43):

Right. Um, so we have to morph it a little bit to, Hey, as we build this relationship, let’s work on it. Um, if you go into second and third meetings and Elise brought in two other people, I’d still do the part about time, but I would finally just fast forward and say, Hey, Elise is already, Elise already knows this. Look if at any point y’all don’t like it just tell me like you’re not gonna offend me so I can at least put that piece out there. Um, so yeah. Last little things then we’ll go onto the next, whatever you wanna cover. Um, yeah. I purposely use that word. Fair, fair puts people on even playing fields. If you can’t, if you’re just listening, my hands are sort of, you know, pointing to each other at an even level. Everybody wants to be treated fair. Mm.

Speaker 2 (34:28):

Nobody wants to be unfair. Then later when someone starts to ghost you, which will happen, you can send the message of, Hey Elise, haven’t heard from you in three or four weeks after a couple of messages. When we first spoke, we said, if it wasn’t a good fit, we’d let each other know. Normally when I, when this happens, that that’s kind of where we might be. Can you just let me know? So I don’t bug you anymore. Mm. So I can go all the way back to my respect contract, right? Where we establish fair and redraw that line and professionally say that respectful to them. Right. Who’s who’s ever gonna come back. Nobody. I swear to God, nobody will turn around and say, how dare you tell me that I’m treating you unfairly. It’s like, yeah. Again. Well thank you for self-selecting Al, but nobody further on that. So anyway, I’m gonna shut up now, but that’s no,

Speaker 1 (35:19):

This, I love that.

Speaker 2 (35:20):

So this is, you know, we confirmed time. We made sure that I left five minutes cuz there’s nothing worse to getting it to the end of the meeting and not being able to, you know, oh yeah. Just email me next week and we’ll figure out time. No, no, no, no. I don’t want that. I need that five minutes. Um, confirm what we’re trying to get outta the call. Yeah. Confirm that. I’m gonna ask you questions. You’re gonna ask me questions. All of this earns you the right to go anywhere you want to go. So I’ll pause there.

Speaker 1 (35:48):

That was so good. Oh my gosh. No, I wanna, I’m gonna go back and we always get these transcribed. I’m gonna go get the transcription of that. And I please, I do something similar, but it’s not that thorough. And as you went through, I was like, oh, that point is so good. That point is so good. So I highly encourage for all of our listeners, like go in and actually take notes on that part. And then I re I appreciate what you said about

Speaker 2 (36:08):

I’ll even, I’ll throw it out there. Hear anybody who’s listening to this Richard at our Harris four 15. You want me to hear your respect contract? Go for it. I’ll listen. Schedule time. My cell phone was four one five five nine six nine one four nine five nine six nine one four nine. Text me first, just so I don’t let the call go to voicemail, but, um, I’ll I’ll role play it with people like totally down.

Speaker 1 (36:32):

So. Awesome. Thank you for that. So final, final que, well, I’ve got a couple quick questions for you after this, but final kind of main question. Yes. Uh, I would love to hear about, so you help produce or you do. I, I think you have a couple of partners who you work with on this correctly, if I’m wrong, but the mental health, um, yeah, the mental health and sales report.

Speaker 2 (36:51):

Yeah. So, um, Jeff wisely from the sales, the sales mental health Institute, I think that’s the name of mm-hmm <affirmative> uh, Tim Clark, uh, Tim created a nonprofit called uncrushed. Yeah. Which is the stories of people who’ve been crushed by the quota. Mm. And we share our stories. Yeah. Um, and so Tim and I, Tim asked me to be on the board of that, someone on the board of that, and 20 last year, we put together a state of mental health and sales report. Um, for 2021 obviously happened during the pandemic. So that, so there’s some little interesting data in there, you know, around that. And it is a self reporting report. So we acknowledge that. But when you have 800 people respond, you can see there’s still some similarities. Wow. Um, and one of the things we did in this report, and we did again for this year, uh, cuz, and this won’t come out in September, October. Um, we would ask question of when you were at your peak performance, what was your manager doing for you? Hmm, not when you were at the worst, what did you wish?

Speaker 1 (38:00):


Speaker 2 (38:00):

Right. We wanted to hear about what peak performance felt like and it’s things like autonomy and, um, support when needed and you know, not the, you know, cause we already know the answer when it’s down. It’s like, well, they’re gonna be, you know, how me about this deal and that deal. And my pipeline is like, no, let’s talk about the positive side of this stuff. Um, and, and from that you can draw the correlation of then, well, this is what a healthy manager slash organization looks like. So if you’re not experiencing this right. So it, it flips it. Right. Mm. Um, so we just became super passionate about it. Um, last year we didn’t have enough data around, um, the L B GT Q a mm-hmm <affirmative> plus I think I got everybody apologize if it didn’t to make any level of correlation, like, you know, and we acknowledged it, um, same with some of the, with, um, Asian and, and people of color. There just wasn’t enough. I think this year we have statistically enough that we can maybe draw some correlations, but if you go read it, um, we’re aware we’re not, it’s not, it’s not an intended bias. Sure. Um, you know, you, um, so, so anyway, so just the report, so

Speaker 1 (39:15):

No, that’s awesome. And people can get it at your website. Right. They can download it, send your website, they’ll link it in the show

Speaker 2 (39:20):

Notes. Yes. State of mental health in sales, 2021.

Speaker 1 (39:26):

Awesome. Awesome.

Speaker 2 (39:28):

And what’s interesting about that data that was collected. It was collected between like January and April of 2021. Was it 2020? No, it was 2021. Yeah. So it was before the vaccines were hitting. And I think when the vaccines hit, people felt a little more relief, but so, you know, we’re conscious of all this stuff, you know, we’re not scientists, but we’re trying to do what we can to support the sales community.

Speaker 1 (39:55):

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it’s, you know, I would highly encourage everyone go download it. Um, we’ll link it in the show notes, but it’s, it’s super comprehensive. And to me, I just thought it was, I think it’s such a needed conversation and you and I both spoke on a, um, a mental health in sales webinar with Salesforce. Yeah. And I would love if you can just maybe take like a minute or two to talk about in your own journey with sales, like what have you learned about the importance of mental health? How do you focus on your mental health? And we can, we can kind.

Speaker 2 (40:26):

Yeah. So my mental health is way before sales. Um, you know, um, I started seeing a therapist when I was about 31, um, still seer to this day. Um, my wife and I still see her. So, and so this, so for those of you who are seeking some support, um, the healthiest people I know are the ones in therapy.

Speaker 1 (40:47):

Mm yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:49):

Yeah. I still know. It also depends on where they are on their journey, but, um, those who are willing to go and do that, I think is important. So powerful. So anyway, so for me, mine was mine is depression, not deep enough that I wanted to hurt myself or others, just general sadness. So I wanna make sure that people understand, I don’t, Belile someone else’s journey or experience. Yeah. Um, so that’s the context for this for me, I think you asked me what are some suggestions for people mm-hmm <affirmative> health, mental one. Um, you don’t have to be willing to go to a therapist if you don’t want to. Uh, it could be a friend, it could be clergy, if that’s important for you. Um, it can be yourself if you’re willing to be self reflective and, and hear yourself out, which is hard. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:37):

Um, without a little bit of support, um, you can also, I do meditation, so I’m a big fan of Headspace. Um, and so I try to do that almost day. It’s on my calendar to do daily. I might only do it twice, three times a week. Yeah. But I definitely went through phases of heavy meditation every day for like 10 minutes. Like I’m not the, let me sit and do an hour. Like I’m, that’s just never gonna be me. I’m a fan of that. Um, I know some people who are really good at adult coloring books, like really intricate ones, which I think are pretty cool. Um, another one that I really liked, cuz I also found out of ADHD is getting one of those kids MAs books, but doing it opposite handed so that wow. Rather than my right hand, I have to do it with my left hand and I’m not allowed to touch the lines.

Speaker 1 (42:27):


Speaker 2 (42:28):

And so what that really does though, it makes you focus super hard on something so that you can stop focusing on other stuff.

Speaker 1 (42:35):


Speaker 2 (42:36):

Yeah. Right. Yeah. So weighted blankets are good. I’ve been told Tetris, the old school game Tetris was really good for that stuff. There’s some data around that. Um, I’m a big fan of support groups and 12 steps. I do a Overeaters thing. Uh that’s one of my, I can’t tell if it’s a side effect of my depression or a co like it’s they go? There’s a correlation in there somewhere, so. Sure. Yeah. Um, and sometimes it’s as simple as just three deep breaths.

Speaker 1 (43:05):


Speaker 2 (43:06):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like sitting down three inhales, three exhales and it’ll change. Yeah. And then the last one, we all know exercise is one. Um, I believe in this thing called the six minute walk, you walk around, you go out the door and you walk three minutes in one direction and you come back. Hmm. I’ve been known to walk around the office, um, for three minutes or six minutes, I’ve been known just don’t I wanna make sure people understand that exercise doesn’t mean going to the gym 30 to 45 minutes, four times a week. Mm mm-hmm. <affirmative> exercise means moving your body. Yeah. And maybe you can’t even do six minutes. Maybe you can only do four. Maybe you can only do two that day or at that moment. But it’s just, we know that when our body moves and the blood pumps, it does release the endorphins and it doesn’t mean you have to go on a six mile child. Yeah. Those are my suggestions.

Speaker 1 (44:03):

Awesome. Awesome. I, I appreciate that. And that’s something I’ve just been having a lot of fun within conversations here on the show lately. Cuz we’ve had guests, like you’ve had some of the other sales force influencers on and people it’s so easy. Even subconsciously mm-hmm <affirmative> to hear, I guess like Richard and think like he’s always had it figured out. He’s always super confident. He’s like always <laugh> that one we may need to edit out. No, I’m just kidding. You’re good. No, but like to hear, to like, to hear you share like, no, this is actually something that’s gone on in my life and to share your journey. I appreciate that because I think it’s so important for all of us to like

Speaker 2 (44:38):

All I, I did and you know, not that people should go spend it, but you know, I have the standing desk and I now have a walking treadmill that I do. Um, so I, you know, I’m not telling people to go spend that kind of money if you can. I don’t want ever want anybody to put themselves in debt. Mm-hmm <affirmative> if they can avoid it for any reason. Yeah, yeah. Right. That just had minute,

Speaker 1 (44:59):

Right? Like yeah. Yeah. No, I think that’s amazing. So this was, this was so fun. I learned, I mean, I learned so much in different areas from you, which I knew was gonna happen, but this was, this was awesome. Um, and so Richard, you already told people I wanted to check where can people connect with you? Yeah. Where can they learn more? You already shared your phone number. So I don’t know if you wanna maybe give,

Speaker 2 (45:19):

Tell people, connect with you. 4, 4 1 5 5 9 6 9 1 4 9 5 9 6 9 1 4 9 Um, and you can find me on LinkedIn, connect me on LinkedIn. So awesome. Awesome. And I’ll put it out there at least if you ever wanna do one of these live, where we go for longing, we have a group of people or yeah. You wanna do a, you know, not alcohol is okay or not. Okay. Doesn’t matter. But if you ever wanna do something for like a happy hour, I’d do it. I’d do it live. Let’s let’s have some fun with the audience

Speaker 1 (45:52):

I love. Oh my gosh. That would be so much fun. Okay. We’ll have to we’ll collaborate on that offline. That’s a great idea. So all right, my friend, Hey, thank you. You so much for coming on. This was really, really a great conversation. I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (46:05):

Yeah. Flew by. Sorry. If I got into too many diet traps, this

Speaker 1 (46:08):

Was so it was exactly what I was hoping for. It was awesome. So thank you again. Come for coming on and to you, my listener go connect with Richard. I think he is the only guest to ever be so generous is to share hisself. So that is a privilege. If you choose to text him and connect with him, but at the very least, thank you. Connect on LinkedIn. Um, grab that state of mental health and sales report. It’s really, really powerful. Yeah. Uh, the work that Richard is doing and um, just thank you so much for being a listener of, she sells radio, wishing you a beautiful rest of your week and I’ll see you on our next episode. Bye for now.


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