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Lead, Don’t Manage with Mark Williams

Whether you are a sales professional, a solopreneur or an established leader leading a team, one of the areas we all consistently need to grow in is leadership. We are all leading – first ourselves, then others whether that’s in the sales process or to join us in our companies. This is an area I’m always wanting to grow in myself, and I’m super excited to bring you a true expert on this topic to the show today.

Mark Williams is the President and CEO of Brokers International, one of the industry’s largest field marketing organizations — providing annuity and life insurance solutions to independent insurance and financial professionals across the nation.

Mark has a proven track record driving transformation, having helped transform companies such as Allianz, The Hartford, and GamePlan from the inside out. 

Currently, Mark is focused on the future of the insurance industry: from the disruptions of InsurTech and robo-advisors to the changing demographics and needs of customers. He also is an avid mentor helping financial professionals navigate the industry.

Mark is the author of Lead, Don’t Manage: 12 Lessons in Creating a Leadership Culture Based on Core Values, which we dive into more in this conversation.


Show Notes:

[2:59] – Whether you are in finance or not, the principles that Mark shares can apply to anyone.

[4:41] – In a society that glorifies hustle and burnt out, Mark explains what inspired him to change his mindset.

[6:20] – Give it all you’ve got, but you don’t have to work for every minute of the day.

[8:19] – Working hard does not mean you are working smart.

[10:09] – Prioritize what you are doing when you are doing it and make sure the tasks you are working on are important.

[12:06] – At the end of the day, results matter. But challenge your boss to do it your way and see what your results are.

[15:24] – Mark believes that clients and employees are different today than they have been in the past. They’re more open to authenticity.

[17:10] – Branding is important, but it’s not your logo. It is what people say about you when you’re not in the room.

[21:50] – LinkedIn seems like an audience that only wants business professionals. But people are interested in real people.

[23:18] – What is the difference between traditional leadership and transformational leadership?

[27:02] – As a leader, understanding the things that employees are going through is crucial.

[28:23] – Lots of good salespeople are not good managers. Be brutally honest with yourself.

[33:40] – There’s a balance that needs to be found in leadership. One of the toughest things to do in leadership is being a “bad guy.”

[36:02] – The conversations you are most fearful of might be some of the best conversations you’ll ever have.


Links and Resources:

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Balance, Not Burnout Podcast

Mark Williams Website

Lead, Don’t Manage: 12 Lessons in Creating a Leadership Culture Based on
Core Values
by Mark Williams



Welcome to She Sells Radio now whether you are a sales professional a solopreneur


or maybe you’re leading an established team one of the areas that we all consistently need to grow in is in


leadership and here’s the thing we are all leading first ourselves then others


right whether that’s in the sales process or we’re leading others to come join us in our companies and I will say


candidly and transparently this is an area that I am always wanting to grow in myself and so I am super excited to


bring you someone who I think is a true expert on this topic today so that you can learn along with me so I’ll tell you


a little bit about him and his background my guest today is Mark Williams he’s the president and CEO of


Brokers International if you are not in the financial services industry it’s one of the industry’s largest field


marketing organizations so they provide annuity and Life Insurance Solutions uh to Independent Insurance and financial


professional around the nation he has a proven track record of driving transformation having helped transform


companies such as alance the Hartford and game plan from the inside out and


currently Mark is focused on the future of the insurance industry from the disruptions of insured Tech and Rober


advisers to the changing demographics and needs of customers and he’s an avid Mentor helping Financial professionals


navigate the industry he’s also the author of a book that I’ve been reading which I’m super excited to ask more


about lead don’t manage so we’re going to dive more into that today Mark welcome to shells radio it’s so good to


spend time with you today yeah thanks so much for having me I really appreciate it I was totally looking forward to this absolutely and we were just connecting


on the Marietta connection before we went live so we were almost neighbors I


think I left right before you moved in it’s always crazy such a uh such a small


world and special place in my heart for that City for sure that’s where our oldest son was born so um here’s one


thing I’ll say and I was sharing with you too in the pre-chat our audience is primarily female sales professionals and


entrepreneurs and many of them are in financial services U but we also have men who listen and a really diverse


audience so one thing I want to say before we kick off that this conversation is going to apply to


everyone whether or not you’re one of our listeners who is in finance and like


I said I’ve been reading Mark’s book lead don’t manage and the principles in here apply to everyone so I want for me


to the listeners I want to invite you to tune in to take notes because you’re going to learn from someone who has led


for quite some time very successfully in a very competitive industry and you can


apply these principles whether you are like I said at the beginning a solopreneur whether you’re looking to


scale whether you’re in financial services it doesn’t matter all the principles are going to be Universal so


um before we get into anything leadership related I want to ask you about I’m calling them the two B’s


balance and branding so for first question for you uh you host your own


show which I’ve been having fun diving into called balance not burnout and I


was very pleased uh to see that that is


a focus of yours in your work because I think we all regardless of whether someone’s in finance or not so much of


the business World celebrates hustle burnout you’ve got to work 247 to be


successful right this is what’s taught um and I’ve I’ve had my own low points of My Life coming out of that mindset


and a lot of what we teach now is around it’s aligned with what you teach on the podcast but on your website um it says


Mark challenges the idea that success as a professional today requires juggling


an Ever growing list of priorities your attention is one of your most precious


resources and then you say it’s time to ditch hustle culture and replace it with a cultivated sense of


intentionality you talk about trying The rebellious Act of balance I love this so I’d love to hear a little bit more about


your inspiration for the show and was there a time in your career in your life when you found yourself in Burnout where


you said something’s got to change you bet and thanks for asking so uh for your


listeners I’m 55 years old and I’ve been in the financial services business for 30 years and in my earlier years it was


all about hustle work as hard as you can um nights weekends I travel traveled uh


for over 20 years 48 weeks out of the Year almost Monday through Friday um


literally I thought that was the keys to the kingdom right that would get me to where I want to go now In fairness some


of that hard work did lead to some of the some of the uh positions that I got and ultimately the opportunity to run a


few companies so I I don’t want to Discount the importance of that but today with the increase in technology


and just the way people can reach us I’m answering texts at night I’m getting a


LinkedIn me I I get 30 or 40 LinkedIn messages a day some people are on Facebook and they’re on Instagram and an


email and phone calls it does get to be overwhelming and overwhelming for my


employees and I’m watching it happen now at 55 I can honestly say it’s


time to set some boundaries and had I set boundaries earlier on in my career I think I would have been even more


productive and I’m seeing that from our own employees so I’m challenging the hey let’s work 20 hours a day and give it


all I’ve got I want you to give it all you got I just don’t think you I think you can do it for eight or nine hours a


day if you work smart um if you’re organized if you prioritize if you do


things that matter then I think you can achieve the same amount of success and


still have time for yourself for your kids for your family for your significant other for a hobby


um do something that just makes you happy maybe it’s yoga or working out or reading a good book or sleeping late um


I I have seen not only in myself but in my employees and my peers when you take a little more time to yourself and you


recharge you do give it more and so I’m challenging that and hopefully that will resonate with some folks oh I’m I’m sure


it resonates with everyone you know a lot of the listeners here are working others and even today as we do this


interview now this actually hasn’t happened it’s since I’ve been a mom but my um three and a half-year-old was


really sick this morning and I decided to keep him home so like I’ve got him home with me today he’s watching a show


I was like Mommy’s got stuff you can’t come in right now um but a lot of our listeners they’re doing that dance every


single day and they’re working from home they’re taking care of the kids so it’s even beyond the 8 to nine hours right


which most people deem a normal workday like they’re dealing with how do I take care of the kids make sure that they’re


set up and simultaneously grow and run a successful business so it’s it’s real


right but I think one of the things you shared was you think you so you 55 have


this um maybe not realization but this is the the your viewpoint on it now


which I appreciate I agree you said you thought you might be even more successful earlier on with these with


this intentionality in place um why do you think that is yeah I um there used


to be this adage when I was younger um I’ll outwork everyone I want someone I want someone


to work hard I want them but more importantly I want them to work smart and with the amount of information we


have today on our customers on our competitors on our peers I want I I I’ll


back up a few years ago I did a lesson for every 15 minutes of the day I jotted


down what I was doing for a whole day literally every 15 minutes I wrote what I was doing you would be amazed at the


amount of time we consider ourselves busy but are not doing really productive


work yes so I would go out to see every customer possible when I was younger I’m


not sure I needed to see every customer in fact I I will guarantee you that there were plenty of customers I called


on that I didn’t need to visit face to face or as frequently or they didn’t


contribute as much to the bottom line to Warrant a vis it so had I had I had the information I


have today as to which customers are providing the most value where are the customers that need me to be there


present versus a phone call can I work by Zoom can I prioritize my day where I


make my phone calls in the morning to the most important calls and in the afternoon I’m working on uh maybe it’s


paperwork or contracts or whatever I’m doing can we prioritize our time in a


better fashion and I would argue yes today um and again few rules of


management if you have someone to delegate information or delegate tasks learn to delegate one of the biggest uh


things I see with entrepreneurs um and we have lots of them in the insurance business in fact most Financial


professionals are entrepreneurs um they’re hesitant to hire someone and then when they do


they’re not really sure what to give them how how to delegate what to delegate um I would challenge most


entrepreneurs that the best thing you can can do is get to be in the position to hire someone to help you let them


handle the work you shouldn’t be doing um so that’s one aspect right prioritizing what you’re doing when


you’re doing it and is the work you’re doing actively being effective or are


you just busy yeah I have lots of employees that work really hard I would argue I’m not sure all of them are


producing the way they should so that’s just a small Challenge and I think I’ve challenged myself to work that way and


and again we’re we’re surrounded with so much information and we have so much more information on our customer base today on our salespeople I think there


is a way to work smarter get the same if not better


results and have more free time than we thought I agree now one follow-up


question to that so as you’re talking I’m thinking about some of the clients in our community and we have women in


financial services and I’m thinking about conversations I’ve had specifically with a few of them


where they are trying to figure out how do I manage up with the expectations given so they have management leadership


telling them cold call you know smile and dial go through these hundreds and just keep turning the phones which is


how it’s been taught and how it’s been done to them they’re like I know that if


I could be more intentional that I I would approach this a different way I want to be more


intentional with my work I want to focus like they I have one woman for example who does a great job with events and


putting on events and bringing in clients that way yet her leadership is still looking at have you made all your


calls for the day and there’s some resistance there I’m curious from where you’re standing what is your perspective


if you feel like your leadership is telling you to do stuff that you know deep down is like check the box rather than intentional action you bet um I


have run sales organizations my entire career results matter yeah at the end of


the day results are what your upline wants I would offer the challenge to


challenge your boss let me have one quarter one quarter of this year to do


it my way and let me see if I can match the results from doing it the way versus


the way you want me to do it at the end of the day as a salesperson you have to see people you have to present what


you’re offering you have to attempt to make the sale you have to close yeah and if you’re if you’re really good


about studying who you’re calling on and when you’re calling on them and how effective are you calling on them the


second thing you’re going to study is how effective am I at closing at my presentation and closing and out of how


many people do I speak to present to and close to how many sales am I making at


the end of the day if you can Prospect in a different way and you and you want to challenge the cold calling which I


made thousands of cold calls in my career if could if you can see the same number of people cold calling versus


networking versus doing uh events at at a World Congress Center um if you can


see the same number of people present the same number of people and sell the same number of people your way I think


your boss will get out of your way and it’s a challenge I literally would walk in and say I’d like to challenge this


and maybe it’s not a quarter give me six weeks give me four weeks give me eight weeks depending on you know your your sales cycle and what you


sell at the end of the day Day More sales makes your boss look good they’re


not going to matter how you got there as long as you’re producing so I would challenge I I would


challenge that and I think that a really good boss is going to give you that


opportunity because I want you to succeed and if you think you can succeed in a different way listen there’s


there’s a bunch of ways to drive to my home if you have a better way than the way I gave you knock yourself out I just want you at my home at a certain time


right that right if you can get there a different way or it’s a scenic route or you’ll meet six more people that way than my way congratulations I think


results matter and results speak for themselves no matter how you get it done so that would be my challenge I love


that I think that’s great feedback and then of course that assumes that you have a boss who’s open-minded and who is


in that leadership mindset too which we’ll we’ll talk a little bit more about the show as we go but I appreciate from


your perspective you saying I would do this and I think that’s really helpful because I know I’ve coached a number of


women our community on how do I tackle this when I feel like I’m just being giving minutia to check the box which no


one wants to be doing so even in this world where we’re juggling you talked about family and people working with


their family um I have been on interviews with my 10 and 12 and


14-year-old son where I said to my Prospect you know today’s dad’s day and


I brought my son along and you don’t mind he’s just going to sit with me for a little while as I give this


presentation no one ever said no and in fact I would tell you it was more endearing having my son with me than not


right so just small example of where you can you can uh press I think people are


different today and they’re more open-minded today and they’re willing to do different things um and and they’re a


little more open-minded with someone juggling their time yeah um hey let’s meet by Zoom today might be a little bit


easier for me to review what what we sold or or or my my product by Zoom might be a little more efficient for me


and it’s going to give you a little more efficiency I think people are more open to those types of things so again I would challenge if you have a boss


that’s challenging you challenge back in a respectful way and say let me see if I can produce results my way and I I I I


think I think you might be surprised with most bosses yeah so good speaking of family I love that you brought up


family so the other B that I wanted to ask you about was branding yep so I


think you’ve done a really good job and I don’t say that lightly because I coach


a lot of people on branding and building personal Brands that’s a huge part of my background I think you’ve done a really good job of building a


human uh connected personal brand on LinkedIn and I know this is an area


where whether you’re in financial services or not a lot of times people will say how much do I share of my


personal life especially on LinkedIn how much do I share of my family of the human touch and they feel like they have


to be robotic and then if we drill it down even more specific to advisers or


marketers it’s because we coach and work with a lot of them um there can be a lot


of confusion discomfort what do I share I’ve got to work with compliance etc etc


and so they don’t feel comfortable building their brand so I would number one say go check out Mark and will’ll Link all his social in the show notes


here so you can see how he’s doing it but what is your approach to this because I I think every time I see a


post from you it’s like it’s compelling it feels personal there’s family a lot of times so speak to that a little more


yeah thank you very much much so first off I will say whenever I speak in front of a group of people I ask the same


question how many of you have a brand and most people don’t you know when you think of a brand you think of a logo and


most people are surprised that they have their own brand and this is the way I would describe that your brand is


whatever people say about you when you’re not in the room right so and we all have a brand


and and the easiest story I tell is that when when when when you were trick-or-treating as a kid everyone knew


the house that gave out good candy also knew the house gave raisins or or dimes or whatever right that was their brand


so you have a brand regardless of whether you think you do or not and it’s really what people say about you so the


first thing is to understand what your current brand is how do people view you do they respect you are you a subject


matter expert at work if you’re a salesperson um what do they like about you you’re super knowledgeable uh maybe


you’re funny um you always have an answer um understand your brand that’s number one


um I believe people buy a salesperson first they don’t buy your product right


if I TR sales are built on trust I might be able to sell you one time but if I’m going to sell you two or three times in


the future you have to like me you’re buying me um and if you like me you’re


more inclined to listen to me to engage with me especially if you know me a


little bit more than just hey I represent this company so uh there’s enough people in the world that whatever


likes you have you’ll find people that have your likes right it’s going look at Facebook look at Facebook groups for


example there’s a group for everything so I was told early on on LinkedIn 100%


be who you are be your brand um there’s times that uh look at my beard today a


little unkempt right so um that’s the way I am sometimes I’m in a t-shirt today it’s it it it’s warm in my house


I’ve got someone working working downstairs and so um I came in a t-shirt that is who I am


um I’m not a suit Tha person every day although the CEO might warrant that on occasion um I speak uh you know I


Stumble sometimes every so often I might cuss once or twice that’s who I am and


I’m very comfortable with who I am and I would offer to most people most people


especially on LinkedIn want to see who you are what are the things that you do what do you like um I’ve taken I I’ve


had photos of me working out looking horrible totally covered in sweat that’s part of my life that’s what I do um I


love to work on cars I posted pictures of me with my cars um that’s who I am that’s that’s that that’s my brand I


don’t shy away from it in fact I invite it and the comments that I get again just based on my comments are people


appreciate that people want to know who you are because when I meet you for the first time you now have a glimpse of to


who I am I’m not a jackeline Hyde this is who I am yeah and I think that most


people want to see that and they want to do business with that and that’s kind of how I was coached and so that would be my challenge for most people do you have


to go into um things I wouldn’t share you know there’s lots of things I wouldn’t share I’m kind of a private


person I might not share really personal information but I might not share that with a prospect either right um I’m not


going to share personal things that I would only share with my best friend but if I got a promotion or I got a new car


or went on vacation I might tell people I went on vacation had a great time and this is what I learned on vacation that


I think resonates with lots of people yeah I um no I think that’s super helpful some of my listeners who’ have


listened for a long time know this story but I share this with clients when they’re feeling nervous or uncomfortable


about putting themselves out there on social so my top performing video of all time is one where I actually had a black


eye which possibly the the shock and off Factor but normally I’m you know I’m a


makeup girl I like getting that up I I like all of that and that’s just who I am and there was a time a couple of


years ago when we were in Marietta um I had had skin cancer surgery and I had a


black eye from following the surgery and I thought I was doing a lot of coaching for people around video confidence at


the time and I thought I have to do a video looking not perfect not done up


just to show that it’s okay to be who you really are and that I tell you what


that video yep it went so above and beyond the others because it was it was just real and raw and to your point


there’s boundaries right but yeah and I’m glad you mention that the number one post I ever had on LinkedIn was a


picture of me handwriting cards so every year I handw write cards to our


employees we have about 120 employees so that takes me you know a good few days it’s a lot of cards it’s a lot of handwriting um and the the the the it


was just a picture of me handwriting cards and I said you know do something a little bit different around the year blah blah blah blah blah um but it was


me in my office handwriting and I think it was hey


that’s that’s one of the T that I do it’s not really noteworthy but it’s real that’s what I do and it got a lot people


not only just the fact that I wrote the cards but the fact that that’s who I am that’s what I do um it’s one of the


things that I do um and I think people are interested in that yes so yeah I I think I hate to use


the word authentic or you know that that seems to be the buzz word lately but there is some truth to that be who you


are let people see who you are so when I meet you hey I know a little bit about you or at least personality absolutely


absolutely So speaking of you as a leader and you so your book lead don’t


manage you wrote that during covid is that right that was the a little bit before but yes finalized it and everything yes got it so you speak to


the difference between conventional leadership and transformational Leadership and I know so much of your


brand and what you speak on as around leadership and we don’t have enough time today to get into all the things but I


want to ask you a couple of high level questions that I think will be really valuable to our audience so can you


speak first and foremost to what is that difference and how do we become transformational leaders versus


conventional leaders so conventional leadership um hierarchical um I have a


downline um I I’m I’m more concerned with are you in the office today versus not in the office um transformational um


I work on a team I have 125 employees we’re a team um the uh my receptionist


as is important to me as my CIO she has a different function but she’s part of the team she is the first interaction


that anyone has with my company either telephonically or when they’re walking in that first impression is important to


me and it’s important to the company so how do you value your team members and do they feel valued um do they know that


you care about them um I have a personal I try to create a personal connection


with almost every one of my employees um what are their kids names what are pets names what do they do on the weekends um


it’s important to me that they know I’m invested in them not only just as a an employee but as a person I would argue


that’s different today that’s a different type of leader today than what we were taught As Leaders 30 years


ago more of that more of that you were talking about the leader before sit down make your 100 dials right um not really


concerned with what you do on the weekends that’s your personal time um get to know your employees um an


employee who is having trouble at home isn’t a happy employee at work and is probably less productive get to know


what their issues are maybe you can assist or maybe you can help or give them a little bit more time off so they


can fix the things at home and become a better employee at home that’s a transformational leader that’s a leader


who is invested in his employees not just financially mentally physically um


those things matter and um that that’s probably the easiest thing for me to


base it on yeah no it’s it’s great and again it’s I I sense it could be a much deeper dive conversation too one thing I


want to ask based on that is let’s say that we’re leading someone and we can we


can tell that they’re having a hard time right and you said find out what’s going on how do we obviously there has to be a


foundation of trust laid ahead of time for that but how do you enter into that conversation with someone without making


them feel defensive or like they can’t share what’s going on how would you open up to that um that’s a good question and


especially as a boss right sometimes it’s really and if I’m honest some employees will


never share information with their boss for fear of oh I don’t want my boss to think I’m not doing I’m not doing a good enough job or


something like that they don’t necessarily have to have to they don’t have to share it with me all the time


right we have an HR department we have managers um their upline manager um they have peers in the company


um but I think it I I think it starts it stems from trust right what kind of relationship do you have with your


employees you’re right if I if I didn’t know my employees names and I didn’t know their their family names you’re right there would be no basis of trust


um I think if you’re a genuine person that really likes their employees and and and is concerned with them there’s already that basis there um but what I


would tell my employees and what we have said is make sure someone knows that we can help you so that we can assist in


the time of need um I spend so much more time at the office than I do at home I am concerned with people um I’ve had


rough patches in my life where I didn’t give my work 100 % of course that that’s


life um I often share that listen I understand I’ve been in situations where


I went through a divorce 20 some odd years ago when when you’re going through that you’re not giving it all at work I


let people know it that’s true I I’ve lived it so I might share a personal story to say listen if things are


happening at home I get it if you need a couple you know couple hours off or a day hey let’s let’s let’s sit down with


your manager in HR and see if we can’t work that out um I think it’s just that it’s Maybe Just sh priming the pump


right share a little bit about yourself or that you’ve been in a situation that that was struggling um listen any CEO


entrepreneur has had rough times every single one um whether it’s not knowing


where the next customer comes from or the next paycheck or or or job security everyone’s gone through that share a


little bit of that let people know yeah I was scared I didn’t know where my next paycheck was coming from that often helps yeah perfect which


is again again buzzword but the authenticity piece that ties in with that as well so let’s say that someone


is listening Mark and they’re hearing okay so you’re leading 120 employees you’ve got this Mega team that you’re


leading and maybe they are a solopreneur and maybe they have a VA so let’s just


say have a VA but they know it’s time to scale and they are done wearing all the


hats can you speak a little bit to how do we approach hiring and leadership in


those really early stages where we’re bringing on our first couple of employees and then maybe any mistakes or


pitfalls that we should avoid yeah uh the first thing is to be really honest


with yourself um lots of good salespeople aren’t good


managers and that just is and that’s okay they’re great salespeople um lots


of salespeople don’t know how to manage people and are very difficult managers because they expect people to be just


like them so the first I would say is take an inventory of yourself who are you what are your strong suits um if


you’re not a good manager you need to find someone who possibly is a good manager right so be honest with who you


are and understand who you are understand exactly what you need the


position to do um often times people will turn to a family member or someone that a


cooworker that that that or or a peer that just ran out of work and they and they hire the wrong person right because


they they they’re they’re friendly they know someone who’s out of work so they’re going to put them in but they’re not really they’re not a fit for the


role that’s a challenge make sure you understand what the role is what are you


hiring for what are the five or six or seven accountabilities you’re going to pay for and make sure that they’re very


clear this is uh at least I’m hiring you these are the five to seven things I need that that essentially your job


revolves around there might be some other things but these are the accountabilities I need you to do and then make sure I’m matching the


right person with those accountabilities the right skill set got it and then make the leap yeah make the leap um you will


be surprised much like most entrepreneurs did when they decided to become entrepreneurs they made the leap


and many of them will say it was the scariest but best thing I ever did I often hear that same about hiring an


employee I was so afraid I couldn’t give up the X number of dollars to hire someone and many of them will say the


first employee was the hardest and then they did it and their business boomed um just make the leap so do it


before you’re ready which is what people say I think it’s a general good rule of th for life right yeah and with those


accountabilities so this is maybe getting really granular by the way in case you can’t tell sometimes podcast


episodes or coaching sessions for release that everyone gets to listen in and benefit from so this is really


helpful thank you with those accountabilities are those all are any of them results like you’re accountable


for X results or is it all action driven because you believe if someone’s taking the right actions we’re going to get the


results as a natural byproduct good question and I wish there was a flat answer but it all depends on who you’re


hiring and what you’re hiring for and I’ll say what you’re hiring for not who you’re hiring um if you’re an


entrepreneur Financial professional it might be admin work and that’s the thing I see the most you’re not hiring someone


to call on your customers you might be calling them to do service work right call on a customer to make sure they got


their policy or answer any questions but you’re really help that that person generally speaking in financial services


your first hire is someone to help you do administrative work right so making sure that um they


understand what they’re doing answering the phone taking messages setting appointment times resetting appointment


times calling the companies that you represent following up on paperwork um right documenting things those might be


action oriented items that you are taking a look at how well they’re doing


are they setting my appointments how old do they speak on the phone are they going through all of the different


companies that I have to call and make sure things are updated right that’s tactical and you can actually see that


they’re doing a good job or not doing a good job that’s that’s for us in the in that type of environment if you’re a a


small entrepreneur who owns a coffee shop it might be your first employee at the coffee shop right someone that’s


going to make the coffee those are more yes these are how do they greet the customer um when they’re really riled up


and it’s super busy can they still make all the coffee and make sure that they’re uh you know uh pulling things


from the supply room I I’m making things up but H those those might be a little bit of Personality right how is the


personality fitting in and are they doing the work that they need to get done so it all depends on the role


you’re trying to fill but you have to be really specific to the employee what you’re holding them accountable for they


might come back and say well I didn’t know I was supposed to stock the store room when the truck came you never told me that I was supposed to agree


customers make coffee so there was a breakdown in communication and now it’s not fair because you you set an


expectation that the employee didn’t didn’t understand so again clear expectations of what I’m doing and how well are you communicating with them


makes total sense raising my hand as someone who has said wait you’re not a mind reader when I’m clear that they’re


absolutely reading my mind so speaking of that and just a couple more questions here and so good um but I want to speak


to the accountability piece a little bit and I’ll just share with a lot of the members of our community and gosh even


if my own life too I know that when I am tasked with holding someone accountable


it can feel uncomfortable right it doesn’t feel good and I think there could be this pendulum swing and again


I’ll just I’ll be vulnerable and transparent here and say this is something that I’ve experienced in my own leadership style which is why I’m


working on intentionally how can I grow and cultivate in this area where it’s almost an extreme from going like you


have to either micromanage and no one wants to do that we don’t want to micromanage but we feel like we have to


to maybe just wanting to let people go free range and do whatever they want to do so obviously there’s some sort of a


middle ground and balance between those two if someone is listening and they’re saying yes I have done that pendulum


swing yes I relate to what least just said how do we find and cultivate that


balance in leaderships ourselves the biggest one of the biggest I don’t want to call it a mistake but one of the


biggest one of the toughest things for any person that manages someone is is I’m being a bad guy no one wants


to feel like a bad guy yeah no I I don’t believe anyone want like it’s an uncomfortable feeling so now I have to


come to an employee who isn’t doing a very good job and I have to tell them that um I don’t want to be the bad guy


and so some oftentimes we don’t or we let it go on way too long or they become a disruption um you’re really if you if


you view it a little bit differently that you’re doing them a disservice I know that if I told you if


I came to a seminar that you were giving and I had some things that critiques that might make you better as an


entrepreneur most people want to be better even as people we want to be better if I ever said something to


offend you I would be horrified please tell me if I offended you the same way with work hey you know we had an


expectation to do this I thought I was pretty clear about it if you’re having trouble getting it done please share


that with me but right now I’m not seeing the results I I’m not seeing the effort that I thought I was supposed to


get um having that conversation is a benefit not only to me because I need the job


done but it’s a benefit to my employee to know where they stand it might not be a good fit it might not be that you’re


the perfect person for the role in which case it’s better for you to move on and it’s better for me to move them on um


that’s a tough conversation and a lot of people shy away from that it’s the number one mistake I think most even companies make is they’re they’re not


giving a fair assessment of the work being done and often times in big companies I get rid of the person I


don’t like in my department I send them off to another department well that’s not solving the problem for the company that’s just solving the problem within the department yeah um so I I think it’s


being honest and again it’s all about communication how do I speak to you listen we’ve all had those uncomfortable


conversations with a significant other um or you should right uh something doesn’t feel right um you end up scared


of that conversation but oftentimes it’s the best conversation you ever had because now they understand how you feel


um so I would challenge people to have those types of conversation the minute you feel it something isn’t feeling


right and even say that hey something isn’t feeling right um you know I asked you to do these four things only two of


them get done is it something you need from me maybe I’m holding you back maybe I am micromanaging you and and my


employee turns around and goes yeah you’re over my shoulder all the time I’m so self-conscious I’m afraid of doing anything that’s a really fair answer and


I wouldn’t get it unless I asked them so that’s probably I I I know it’s easier


said than done so I you know I know it’s easier said than done but much like any difficult conversation we usually feel


so much better after having them yes and I appreciate what you shared about the moment you feel it address it yeah


because it is the most uncomfortable thing to do but the more it sits there and stews that it’s not going to get any


better as well so yeah absolutely let me ask three final questions so first one


what do you hope your legacy is as a leader um I’m super honest and transparent


about the fact that um few years after I’m gone no one will remember who I am right like that’s that you know thing


about old bosses that You’ had yeah I want as my legacy I’d really like um


there’s a phrase I heard long ago if I can help you get where you want to go I’ll get where I want to go yeah um I I


would hope that people would say you know what he was invested in me and he he really helped me or he gave me some


advice or he was just a kind person um that would be wonderful for me it was


great working for him he a few people have moved across the country to work for me it was the greatest compliment


ever wow they literally picked up their families to come work with me I was so humbled by that that’s probably the


best something that anyone ever did for me um I would hope that that would be my legacy just a good guy to work for yeah


amazing something I love asking when we have men on the show since this is a


it’s primarily women listening sure is I’d love to pay tribute to an important woman in your life so if you think about


um a woman in your life who’s important to you without a doubt think about it there you go so your wife so what’s the


number one life lesson that you’ve learned from your wife um my wife makes me and it’s such a cliche she makes me


want to be a better person um she is supportive she pushes back when I’m not


right when I’m wrong and she isn’t shy to say it um she is always in my corner


um she has um been supportive told me not to do things when I was going to do something stupid um she uh


she’s I give her 85% of My Success yeah wow that’s beautiful y final question


and this is um this one is simple but if someone wants to go to connect with you to learn more about what you do listen


to your podcast read the book find out about the how they can partner with you what’s the best way for people to


connect you so I do have a it sounds so funny I have a website I would


really invite people to reach out on LinkedIn as well I I do respond to to messages that I get on LinkedIn 


unless you’re trying to sell me something that I don’t need um but in general um if you’d like to reach out if you’d like to have a conversation if


you’re interested in something that we talked about if you want me as a speaker I’d love to do that as well um my website’s got all of my information my


contact information all of that so that’s the best spot perfect will link it in the show notes it’s


but we’ll put the link there and we’ll link to your LinkedIn as well this was so fun thank you like I said I’m really I’m getting so much out


of reading your book um so whether someone is in financial services or not


if you want to grow and make an impact in the world and help serve others I cannot recommend enough um get Mark’s


book we’ll link it in the show notes as well lead don’t manage connect with him and uh go share this episode as well


with someone who you think can benefit from it so mark thank you again for being here today this is great super fun I uh again thank you so much for asking


and wish you the best of luck thank you thank you so much thank you all right my listener thank you as always for tuning


in like I said we’ll link all the goodies so you can connect with Mark and his work in the show notes thank you as


always for being a listener of She Sells Radio and we’ll see you on our next episode bye for now.


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