Welcome to she sells radio. I am really, really excited to have this conversation today. And I think it is probably one of the most important conversations we can be having as women in sales. And it is looking at how often do you look outside of yourself for approval? How often do you seek validation from your social media engagement count or from someone who’s maybe your sales team leader or a role model or a mentor, and not that there’s not value in seeking outside guidance. There absolutely is to a point. And especially if you’re earlier in your journey, you’re probably going to be doing more of that. One of the things that I have found as I have progressed,

We’ll just say progressed advanced in age, is that

The answers and the validation? Well, let me say it this way. The answers were often inside me all along and the validation that I sought from other people was actually just something I needed to give myself. And I’ve got a really, really powerful conversation for you today with my guests, Marie Devo about that very thing. And Marie is an executive coach. She focuses specifically on helping minorities and women of color amplify their voices. And she’s got kind of a story that she’ll tell in the podcast about when she personally ran into struggles and opposition with that and what she learned and what she did and how it got her to where she is today. She’s a powerhouse woman from both an entrepreneur standpoint, as well as corporate standpoint. She’s got just a strong background in both, which I think makes her really an ideal person to come on and kind of have the sales conversation too, because whether you’re an entrepreneur, whether you’re in corporate sales, these same themes are going to be showing up for you again and again.

So we get into some really good dialogue and conversation specifically around, you know, how this concept of betting on yourself and validating yourself. And if I will tell you right now, if you’re looking outside of yourself for approval, you’re going to want to listen in for what she has to say. Some other things that you’re going to learn and I think be prepared for are around the conversation of visibility. You know, this is something that I think many of us struggle with. And as you put yourself out there and grow your visibility in your space, you can have concerns about how am I going to be perceived. Am I going to be judged yada yada. So she really shares Marie gets into it and shares how to grow your confidence as you put yourself out there. And then of course, you know, we gotta tackle the sales conversation.

And so well, you know,

Some of the best tips that Marie shared around sales are really, really mindset related, which is 95% of success there. And some of my favorite things that she shared her around how to overcome the fear of sales and just get out of your own way when it comes to having those sales conversations and growing your business there. So you’re going to love Marie. She’s just a beautiful soul and example of someone who’s created a successful business and really is in a space of serving other women and helping to amplify other voices along with her own. And also just has a lot of heart and a heck of a lot of solid business strategy for you. So without further ado, let’s welcome, Marie devote to, she sells radio Murray, welcome to she sells radio. It’s such a pleasure and an honor to have you on today. Thanks so much for joining.

Absolutely so glad to be here. Yeah,

Well, you know, just talking in the pre-chat, there are probably a hundred different ways that we could go in this conversation and a hundred different things I’d like to ask you about your background. But you know, one of the things that I so appreciate about that’s so clear in your brand, when you first get to your website is your focus on helping specifically people of color and women magnify their voices. And so I would love to just start off from you about why you do this work and why you’re so passionate about, about helping people do that.

Yeah. So for me, my work is very, very personal and I think for all of my favorite entrepreneurs, it’s also very personal, right? There’s like a passion. There’s something that connects you to the work. And for me, I had been working in the nonprofit sector in the corporate environment for 15, almost 20 years, doing learning and development and training leaders and helping people to really step into leadership and what that looks like, what that feels like. And I remember being at one of the most challenging roles of my life and, and coming up against a lot of challenges. I had been a top performer you know, best performance reviews in my department, that kind of thing. And then I transitioned to a new manager and she made it very clear that she felt threatened by me the point where in meetings it was, you know, could you not share so many ideas, you come across too ministerial or you’re too passionate.

Right. And it got to a point where she actually, she took one of my ideas and express it as her own at a company meeting. And so during that time, right, like that doesn’t feel good. And then when I realized like, okay, this is probably the end of my time here. I made a decision that I was going to leave. I was going to exit. And I remember I came in early one morning and I got on the phone with my sister. It was like 7:00 AM. Right? So before anyone’s in the office, you know, back in the, before times when people went to offices and I’m telling my sister, I’m like, I have to leave. I think this woman’s going to clip my wings. Like there’s no more room for me to grow here. This is it. And I’d been consulting a little bit at the time, got into a lot of communications coaching and helping people really be effective in their communication. I said, I think, I think I’m just going to do that full time. I have to get out of here. And by the end of that day, I get called in to my manager’s office. And she tells me that at 7:00 AM, she sat in the conference room, adjoining mine and listened to my entire conversation.

Now me, I’m a very direct person. I don’t pull any punches. If I’m talking about our relationship to someone else, it’s nothing that we haven’t already discussed ourselves until I told her, I was like, well, we’ve talked about this. Like, this is not a good management, but there are a lot of challenges with us working together. And so I don’t know, where do you think it’s going to go from here? But I do know we have a lot of work to do for Monday. And then Monday morning, she had me come back in to meet with the executive director who basically decided that because I didn’t have a good working relationship with this woman that I would need to prove myself all over again. And they told me, you know, you should be lucky to work here should be thankful that this woman is your manager. And they ended up putting me on a performance plan and exactly six weeks to the day they fired me. Now, the beautiful part of this story though, it was, I was prepared. I knew I already wanted to leave. I started creating content for my website. I already had a consulting client. Right. And so when that time came, I walked into the office. I carried a a shoulder bag that day. Cause I already come in over the weekend. I cleared out my desk. Right.

You know, good luck to you into this organization. And that evening I got on a flight. I flew to San Francisco and I taught a two day workshop for Facebook. So

I tell people, Hey, amen.

We spent a lot of our lives working for other people and giving her gifts away and hoping that we’re going to be acknowledged. And sometimes that acknowledgement, it’s never going to come from the outside, but it comes a point where you have to say, I’m enough. I know that I get to acknowledge myself and step into the confidence that no matter where you go, your skills, your talents or gifts, you take all of that with you, right. It’s almost this space of in your career. You never have anything to lose because you take it all with you roll to roll. So why not so good? Why not?

Yeah. That’s I love that. You said that because the, the acknowledgement is never going to come from the outside or we, you know, we look for it and we’re taught to look for it, which is so interesting. We’re taught to our, our validation comes from people outside of us. But at the end of it, I think you reach a point. It sounds like you’ve reached that point. I think I’ve reached that point in my life where I realized I got to just give it to myself,

But I don’t believe, yeah,

This was something I was thinking about a while back. Like if I don’t believe in myself, why is somebody else going to exactly. If I don’t think I’m the best investment to do invest in or to put money or resources in, why, why am I going to ask somebody else to do that? Why am I looking outside of myself?

We’re on like the exact same wavelength. I mean, I come from a background of learning and development. And I tell people when I look at my business budget every year, my biggest line, my expense line, the biggest expense line is professional development, learning and development for myself. And I tell people, no, you can go out and get, hire a consultant, hire a coach. The question you should ask them is who’s coaching you. Where are you? Up-Skilling because I don’t want anyone still. Yeah. And yourself, how are you going to get someone else to invest in you? Yeah. Oh, that’s good. You know, you should, you should be your number one fan. Yeah.

Yes, yes. That’s so good. That’s so good. So one of the things that clearly has happened for you as, as an entrepreneur and for the women who are listening, you know, quite a few of them are entrepreneurs and others are still there. I shouldn’t say still. That was not at all. What I meant. They are either in corporate wanting to start a business or they’re in corporate and they’re happy and they’re selling. But they they’re looking for there. It’s like the sales training, coaching. Again, it’s not cutting fruit, it’s not doing it. Something’s not feeling right. So tell us about you as an entrepreneur. Clearly you sell you. That’s the only way you’re, you’re keeping your lights on is because you’re making sales. Talk to us about your relationship with sales and how it’s evolved over the years.

Yeah. You know, it’s interesting. I never thought that I would be in sales for me, sales was always a dirty word. Right. But this idea of not wanting to be sold, that if you’re being sold, right. This idea of being sold mean someone’s twisting your arm and trying to convince you, you know, you get images of like a used car salesman and these people who are in authentic and they’re scheming and they’re out for their own interests. Right. I remember even coming out of coming out of NYU, I had a lot of friends who went to stern, right. To the business school. It’s like, Oh, these people are terrible. All they care about is money and selling. Right. And then you get out in the real world. And my first job I worked for, for AmeriCorps, I ended up moving to the Maryland DC Virginia area. And I was a caseworker. Right. I was like, I’m like, I’m not going to sell. I’m not going to go into business. I’m going to go and save the world in the nonprofit sector. And I was making $23,000 a year.

And I was like, this is not sustainable. Not only that, but did I really spend all that time getting a degree from NYU to be in a position where I can’t afford groceries. Wow. and so after my AmeriCorps year, I moved back to New York and I got a job working at an education center where we were selling after-school programming to families. And so it really took this idea that some of it doesn’t have to be sleazy if you actually believe in the value of the service you’re providing. Right? So now it’s not about selling. It’s about how can I provide value? And in providing value, you, the person who’s providing that service, you still get to eat. You still get to take care of your family. You still get to pay the lights at your physical location. Right. And be able to continue to provide worksheets to those kids. All of those things require the tool of money, which means there has to be an exchange for that. There has to be an exchange for that, all the things. And I tell people all the time, it’s not that money is the goal. Right. But money is a tool. And if you’re doing your work right, right. It’ll be a lovely, happy by-product of that. Yeah. Yeah. It’s

The, this is something my coach said a lot and really helped me think about it. It’s a double blessing. It’s when you’re, when you are selling something that you believe in that you feel good about for the right person, it’s a double blessing where they get helped and they transform whatever part of their life they’re looking to transform by working with you and you get paid for doing it. And we, we, we can have a double blessing. It’s not, we have to convince or coerce or take something from someone or someone wins. And someone loses, which I think is a lot of, kind of the conditioning that’s around sales. So that’s that’s really, really, I think key insight there for sure. What have you seen? So you work specifically Murray with people of color, right. Women and people of color to help them magnify their voices. And I want to talk about, I definitely want to have the, the visibility conversation with you before that though, I do want to talk kind of the specifics of sales, where, what are some of the particular either its challenges you see, or opportunities that you see for women. We’ll talk about women of color specifically for this audience when it comes to sales.

So well, so a couple of things, and I think even just thinking about sales broadly, a lot of us, maybe many of us who are listening in now, maybe you’ve had an experience with sales or had a role maybe in college where you sold for a little bit and translating that into what you do for your business can oftentimes be very challenging, right? Because you selling for someone else, for someone else’s business, there’s some distance you get to put, right? You don’t feel attached to the result. And oftentimes what happens when now we’re selling for ourselves, we’re very much attached to the result. And some of that goes back to this idea of where you’re looking for validation. Right. And so suddenly, and this happens, I think, especially for women even more so for women of color where oftentimes the spaces where we’re in the aren’t validated just by who we are.

We always have to prove ourselves in some way. Right. So we’re used to having to prove it before we get the reward. Right. We’re used to having to go ask for the promotion cause no, one’s waiting to give it to us. We’re used to, right. I’m not negotiating right. For our salaries. Right. Because we’re always looking for someone else to acknowledge us first. Right. Or sometimes, maybe it’s even a story like mine, where you are raising your hand and people are telling you to be quiet. They’re telling you that you’re too much. Right. Which happens a lot in marginalized communities. And so now when you’re selling for yourself, you’re selling your business, your service when it becomes very, very personal. Cause we’re used to getting our validation from outside. So now we’re in a sales conversation. Right. And someone says they don’t want to work with us.

And now we take it personally. Now we’re like, Oh, it’s because I’m not worth it. It’s because I’m not valuable. Right. Which is a terrible place to try and have that kind of conversation from. Because again, if you don’t believe it, how can you expect anyone else to do so it’s almost this idea of going into it. You’ve already, you’ve already kind of manifested that negative result. Like, Oh, I don’t know. Let me, let me, low-ball this price, right? You’re trying to make yourself small. Right. Even going into the conversation. And so then is it any surprise that people aren’t picking up what you’re putting down, right? Cause, cause you’ve already come across in a way that says I’m not worth it. You’re doing me a favor. I need this. Tell me I’m worthy. Right. I tell people all the time, nobody likes a thirsty coach.

Nobody likes a thirsty sales person. Yeah. Ooh. That’s good. You got to show up to that conversation. Whole one complete knowing exactly who you are and be willing to acknowledge if it’s not a fit. Right. Don’t get too attached to the result because if you’re coming from a place of service, Hey, I have great value to give you. Right. And then you’re in that sales conversation and you realize maybe this person isn’t the fit for you. Maybe they’re not your no hell yes. Client. Maybe they actually what they need. Isn’t exactly what you do or what you’re the best at. You gotta be willing to walk away and own that and say like, you know what? I don’t think it’s a fit. Just like, if they are that hell yes. You’re gonna be like, Oh my God, I would love to work with you. I know I can help you.

Yes, yes, yes.

But you have to believe it first. So how do you,

We start to do that. How do we start to validate ourselves? Hmm.

So I mean, there’s of course, if you walk down any self-help section, there’s all the usual things, right?

Yeah. This is the million dollar question too. Right. It’s like tell us where he love

Because of course, you know, working, working as a coach every month to know the house, the house. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s always that challenge of really helping people on earth. What the, how is for them because how one person did it, isn’t likely going to be your solution. Right. We’re all looking for that just right. Formula and how we show up. Right. When one of my clients, she says, you know what, we’re all looking for the nuance. And instead what we ended up doing, he go out collecting anecdotes from everybody else and try to fit into someone else’s shoes and someone else’s. It was like, Oh, this doesn’t fit. It doesn’t feel right. It’s like, right. Yeah.

Actually I want to pause because I think I’m so glad you said that. Because you’re absolutely right. I was actually reading about this. I’m just getting into studying human design, which has been like so much

Your it’s your you’re enjoying, it’s your jam too. I’m like, I’m all over. Gosh, all over it. Well, you know,

So what’s the book I’m reading. I don’t know. There’s a million books on human design, but her her point, I think it’s Karen Curry. Karen Parker Curry. Her point was we’re all it. There is never, there’s never on this earth been anyone like you and there will never be again yet. Why did we go try to find answers for how to do things or expect that what worked for one person is going to be what worked for us too. And I think that’s so, you know, my mind kind of goes to how does that relate to sales specifically women in sales. And I do think, and this is part of why it’s hard. It could be harder. I think for corporate sales training or company sales training, because you have to create a process duplicatable and replicatable, but at the same time, there are, like you said, there are nuances, there are things that are going to work for you that aren’t going to work for me. So maybe it’s more, maybe it’s more having an acceptance of having fun along the way of exploring and finding out for yourself what works. And I love that picking up the bits and pieces. I mean, I’m kind of figuring this out as we talk here, but I want to hear your thoughts on this. I think this is important.

I love the idea of like actually having fun and enjoying the journey and the ride of it. Right? Yeah. Because like to your point in the corporate environment, oftentimes you’re given a sales script, this is our office is what you do. These are the words that you’re going to say. Right. And then when you’re in the actual sales conversation, like these words don’t feel like me. He’s like right. Cause they’re not right. Right.

And then people complain,

Oh, sales feels so fake. It’s like, right. Cause you’re not even using your own words. They’re not even allowed to be yourself in that space. But as a business owner, as an entrepreneur, you get to make it all up. Yeah. Right. You get to create it. All which for a lot of people can be very intimidating. Like, Oh, I wish there was a script because we will ask, well, how do I do it? And the actual fun of starting a business is you get to create all of it and you get the way right. You get to experiment. I tell people your business is a sandbox, like get in there, get dirty, roll around a bit. Right. Yeah. And that’s the, that’s the fun part because if you were in a tighter container, right. And someone else’s container, you wouldn’t be able to do that. Yeah.

Yeah. That’s, that’s been a big lesson for me over the past style many years.

I think we’re all learning how to play more. We are all learning how to play, where and how to enjoy yeah.

Enjoy the process and the journey. Cause that’s, I mean, that’s really it, but I think being open to, Hey, like let me, let me, you know, listen to this podcast and read books and pick up bits and pieces, but also come back to myself to validate, does this feel right for me? Does this style feel right for me? Do these words feel right? Would I tweak it? Would I change it? And then giving yourself permission to do that? So that you, because I think so much of our power is just feeling aligned, right? It’s it’s doing things the way that feels aligned and authentic to who we are. Right. so I could go on a soap box about

This, but I, you know, I’m curious

About, so this is something that I think is really fascinating. It’s, it’s something I’ve, it’s been a big piece of my journey and it sounds like it has been as well for years is just visibility and helping people overcome that fear. And you know, as we, as we do grow our businesses and whether, you know, we’re creating content and putting content out on social to try to drive leads or maybe, you know, someone’s listening and they are going to do a virtual keynote, their first virtual keynote for, you know, say like a hundred people. And they’re like, Oh my gosh, I’ve never spoken to an audience of this size before. How do I get over the fear? What would you, what are some words of advice you have for someone who is starting to out in a more visible way? And if there are nuances that you see as well for women of color, I’d, I’d love to hear that too.

Yeah. So I think the biggest thing for me, when I think about people really putting themselves out there is if you’re feeling nervous, don’t necessarily interpret that as a bad thing. Right. So if you’re nervous, if people respond a little bit of that is because you care, right? So a little bit of nerves is good. You’re stepping on a stage in front of hundreds of people. If you don’t have a little bit of butterflies, you probably aren’t invested enough. Okay. That’s the first thing. So that is a completely normal reaction to have. The other thing that I think is really important is that especially as a business person, again, you’re coming from service. So when you show up, you actually are creating a space where you get to bless people. And so realizing in that moment, anytime you’re putting yourself out there, it’s actually not about you, right.

It’s actually not about you. You’re showing up because you want to meet a need that someone else has. You’re not doing this for yourself. You’re actually doing this for others. So you can take all of that tension and anxiety about what people are gonna think and are they gonna like me? And does my hair look right? None of that matters because they showed up because they’re hoping you can solve a problem that they have. Right. I think we do a lot of overthinking the importance of us as service providers, because honestly the service is the star, right? You are the vessel, you know, it’s so funny. I always think of my sister-in-law and my brother, huge wine nerds. Right. And if we go over to their house for the holidays, which we’re not going through this year, but if we go to their house for the holidays, they’ll pick out a bottle of wine and they are so particular about which glass have they poured it like, Oh, that’s a peanut glass. We can’t use it for that. That’s really a white wine glass and all of that. And I’m like, you know, I’m not so concerned about the container.

Give me the why can I get that one? We forget? Like it’s not about the container people

For the wine.

Yeah. I like that way of putting it. I like that way of putting it. Yeah. It’s, it’s interesting too, because especially as a, this has just been my experience as a woman. I do feel more pressure to look a certain way when I show up. And the

Video that I did, that’s

Done by far the best of any video I’ve done in probably over a year. Like I usually show my I’m a makeup girl, so I like that kind of stuff. But I had just had skin cancer surgery and I had this massive, like, I’ve got it here, but it’s covered up pretty well scar from here down to my eyebrow. And it was, I had a black eye.

That thing took off. People were like,

It’s, it’s you like? That feels real. And we, I, this is something that I’ve really realized is like, people just don’t trust. Perfect. Right. We don’t trust. Perfect. So kind of getting out of our own way in terms of being the vessel and just letting those, like you said, the services, the star that shine through, I think that’s, that’s so powerful. I love that.

At least I love that story about you like doing a video with your scars showing and you’ll get my black. Oh my gosh. I’m just imagining.

So out of my comfort zone, I was like, I have to do it. It was so out of my comfort zone,

But that vulnerability sells like, yeah, you know, Bernay Brown all day. Like people want to feel like they know you, they want that intimacy. They want the behind the scenes. And honestly, when you do that, it makes the selling part so much easier. Cause they feel like they actually know who you are. They know it’s not a show. This is authentic. This is real right. We could sit down and hang out together in our pajamas. Right. And I still feel you’re going to still have my best interests at heart. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s cool to me to hear about your backstory and kind of how you got into this work and your experience with, it sounds like being very confident in being vocal in your work setting and speaking up, but then really having your voice suppressed. Did you ever, like, have you ever struggled yourself with just discomfort around visibility, fears of visibility, kind of unrelated to that situation? I’m just kind of curious, like where else that showed up in your life and how that’s impacted the work you do.

I love this question. You walk into a room full of women say, does anyone suffer with imposters?

Right. And I was like, are you serious? Right.

That, because I think, especially for women even though we’re, we’re half of the world population, but most of the spaces we’re in are dominated by men. Right. And so you see enough of those examples and you start to believe that maybe you aren’t as valuable. It’s almost like a Jedi mind trick. Right. and so I think I know for myself, I definitely had that even, you know, yes. I had that situation when I left corporate and branched out on my own, but even in my own business, like going through that of like, is this really good enough? Can I do this? Maybe I should. I mean, immediately after I started my business, maybe a monthly, I got offered another full-time position. It’s like, Ooh, should I do that? That would be easier. That’d be safer. No, that conversation do I bet on myself, am

I sure about that? Bet. You know, like

That experience was always there. And even, you know, I’ve been in business now for five years and work with a lot of other business owners and everyone, everyone wants to know when in your business did you start to feel like you’ve really had it like every day and I’m like, come again,

Still waiting. I’m waiting. Till later I get out

The new things and finding new opportunities to grow. And that’s, I mean, that’s part of the beauty of it too, is knowing that we’re never, never quite finished. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. Well, it’s, I think it’s always nice to hear from a woman that somebody else could look up to and say, she’s got it. She’s done, she’s done things. She’s got to figure it out to say, Hey, I’m still like, I’m still figuring that out. And I think too, if you are putting it, like if you’re continually on that growth path, you’re going to, you’re going to kind of keep bumping up against feelings of like, Ooh, you know, this, this feels uncomfortable. This is, you know, visibility’s kind of pushing my edge, but but that’s a good thing. That’s a good thing, especially for, I think, to show other people that we can show up and it doesn’t have to be perfect and

Exactly. And I love that. At least just the idea of just by you continuing to grow and push yourself, you’re already creating an example of that someone else can look to. Yeah, yeah. Right. sometimes you don’t even have to do anything and people will will say, Oh my gosh, you just are such an inspiration. That’s why you being in this space, right. That’s why you going about your business? And this is, this is the part that I think is so interesting about, you know, putting yourself out there, you just keep showing up. You don’t always know who’s watching. And so the impact you have those far beyond what you can even see or measure, right? Yeah. But people are watching

That. You said that that was actually one of the things when I was doing sales coaching previously that I, that really worked well was just consistently putting out. I mean, it’s, it sounds basic now this was kind of before it was cool, but like putting out this consistent, not highly edited, but you know, short video sales tips on LinkedIn. And what I would find was, you know, six months, a year, two years later, someone would say, I’ve been watching your stuff forever. I’m looking for a coach. I’m ready to buy. It’s like, dang, that’s a long sales cycle, but okay. Let’s do it. I know exactly what I want. And those are the parts I love that.

It feels like you didn’t work for it. Cause all you did was just show up. You just show, I just showed up as myself, sharing what I know. And one day someone is ready and they’re like, I’m ready. I know I’m ready to work with you. Yeah.

Yeah. And that’s actually, that has been helpful for me because I don’t think that I’m the strongest closer, but I, but I know how to put out some content with it, which can help close for you. It’s a longer sales process. But if somebody is listening to this and they’re like, I suck at closing. I’m like, I kind of do too, but there’s work around our work around showing up. Eventually you’ll wear them down and they’ll buy, we’ll call this the, wear them down. [inaudible] Known as inbounds. Oh my God. Okay. So I would love to hear Marie. This has been, this has been fun. So thank you so much. And I’ve learned so much from you too. You know, for women listening, I think for many of us that kind of, that first income Mark that we want to hit when we get into sales or running our own businesses, it varies. But for a lot of women, it is six figures and some women who are listening, that’s their target summer beyond that. They’re trying to figure how to scale, but let’s just kind of speak to for a woman who is trying to break through her first six figures and then beyond in her business, what would you say? Like what’s your top piece of advice for her?

Yeah. I think know thyself. Right. and getting really clear about who you are, who you want to serve and the problem that you solve. And I know when I say that some of you, the bells and whistles are going off and you’re like right. Market research,

Right. So

Much of that is being really clear about you actually saying, and speaking the value that you provide, right? Because if you cannot articulate that no one else is going to understand how and what you do, right. People can’t find you if you don’t tell them. So much of my first full year in business was going on lunch dates and coffee dates and telling people, this is what I’m doing. This is the problem I solve. This is who I serve. But again, if you don’t know that crystal clear, right, you got some work to do now to get really clear so that you can actually communicate that, articulate that on the drop of a hat, in any kind of room. And then people have the opportunity to find you. But if your mouth stays closed, they will not come.

Yes. Yes. Thank you for that. That’s so much of the theme of what you’ve shared today has really been about advocating for yourself, speaking up for yourself, knowing that no one else is going to do it for you. And, and just being your own best mouthpiece and advocate. I love that. You shared that. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Oh, so Marie, tell tell us where we can connect with you. I know you have a new program coming up. Sounds like that’s opening up soon. So tell us about that because I know that there are women who are going to want to take their relationship with you deeper and get involved as well.

Yes, absolutely. So of course you can find me on my website and read about.com. I’m also very active on LinkedIn. So feel free to reach out and connect. And I do run a group coaching program a few times a year. And so the next cohort is starting very, very soon. And so if you’re interested in someone kicking your butt to

Know yourself, putting some

Of the systems in place to really make that transition and jump into entrepreneurship, that’s probably one of my favorite things. And so details about that program. The side hustle intensive can be found also on my website.

Awesome. Awesome. There’s nothing like a good but kicking to know yourself, which I appreciate that you

We’re offering because that’s what it is at the end of the day. That’s what matters. So thank you so much.

Oh my gosh. Same, same. And yeah. Thank you so much for your wisdom for showing up for being an example for women who are looking for role models and looking for other women who are advocating for themselves and speaking up, and I feel I feel energized to go out and share more vocally and more openly about myself and who I am and what I’m doing as a result of listening to you. And I’m confident that our listeners do as well. So thank you so much for this.

Thanks Lilly.